What if nobody wants to use magic? Options

[Shadowfox]

I've never GM'd a Shadowrun campaign before, although I've done dnd quite extensively, and most of my friends who will be players are all experienced RPGers, and I'm going to teach them the system. So far though, it doesn't look like anyone wants to be a magician or adept either (a) because they're tired of how much magic use is in DND and want to see guns and hacking, (b) don't want to learn the new system and/or feel as if it's too different from dnd magic to take up.

I've considered two options: one, make a Shadowrunner available for hire (almost similar to how the game for sega worked), and play it for them, or just get rid of magic entirely until a new player joins that wants to do magic and/or one of them dies and wants to roll a new character that's a magician.

I guess my overall question is: how vital is magic to Shadowrun? People tell me that's all that sets it apart from Cyberpunk 2020, but I don't buy that at all, as I believe Shadowrun's combat system is amazingly fun and action-packed. Do I need to include a magician runner?

Alternatively, how can I convince somebody to undertake the process of learning the new magic system?

[Mickle5125]

Shadowruns should be tailored to the team taking them. A team without a hacker isn't going to take a matrix based run, and a team without a mage isn't going to take a mission that requires heavy magic use. That said, putting the occasional security mage against them could demonstrate the usefulness of shadowrun magic without running too much risk of a TPK.

[Jhaiisiin]

Magic is an integral part of the Shadowrun setting and world. You can no more remove it than you could remove magic from DnD. That said, you can work with a completely mundane team and not have issues. Go with the cannon information that states that magic, in all its forms, is RARE. They'll do jobs and run into the *occasional* mage or random physad, but it won't be happening all the time. As they get beefier and do more, they'll hit more magic, just because the higher security areas will always have them. At that point, give them the option of an NPC mage to back them up. Hell, you can use that NPC as a plot hook. Make them a good guy with a family that eventually gets pulled into the shadows for randsom or somesuch. Or make it a bad guy. Or a neutral guy who happily stands by while the players get shot up because they didn't pay his retainer fee. Whatever.

The point is, just downplay the magic at the beginning, and leak it in a bit at a time. Be mindful of any spells resisted by willpower, as they're much harder for mundanes to shrug off.

EDIT: You'll find that as you go along, most likely someone will get interested in the magic side, and they'll opt to have their character bow out so they can take up a magical character. Let Time do it's thing, and it should work out.

[MaxMahem]

I disagree with Jhaiisii. Yes, magic is an integral part of the Shadowrun universe. But that doesn't mean you couldn't remove it if you wanted to. There are several approaches you could take to this.

#1. Go whole hog about it. Everything magical is gone. Which means dragons, orks, trolls, elfs, spirits, ect... are all gone. They don't exist. Just go on and ignore those section of the rule book entirely. The game will still play find with out it. It would be a different game for sure, but still a fun one. The SR timeline would of course be different and you might have to come up with different reasons for why the world is the way it is (or throw the SR universe out and build a new one). But the core concept of the game, Shadowrunners doing Shadowruns, struggling around in the cracks left by the megacorps, would still be there.

#2. Leave in some of the fantasy bits, but remove magic. Orks, trolls, ect, are still in the game but magic is out. Maybe Orks and Trolls are products of advance bio-enginnering. The same might be true of Dragons and other creatures of fantasy (though obviously there stats would differ). The technology to do this is arguably exists in SR at this point, it just hasn't been applied in this manner. This approach would also cost you most of the SR timeline as well. You might want to move the setting a bit farther into the future to explain the large-scale presence of bio-enginnered races. Though the overall tech level need not advance unless you want it to. This setting could be fun. Maybe orks and troll were bread to be a lower class for labor by the mega-corps. Some might still be indentured servants to the corp, while others may have slipped through the cracks or finally earned their freedom. Elves could be children of the higher class, enginnered to be superior to normal humans. And us norms are just stuck in the middle of it all.

#3. Leave magic in, but take it out of the hands of 'mortals.' Magic and all the other fantasy elements remain, they just aren't something that humans (and our offshoots) can toy with. It souly the domain of powerful dragons, spirits, and immortal elven bastards. The only human rituals that are possible are done through large scale ritualistic ceramonies, which may have a cost in human life, such as the great ghost dance. In this setting magic is powerful, even more so than it already is in Shadowrun. Most of the SR timeline could still be used in such a setting, with just some minor modifications. Powerful magical beings like free-spirits and dragons might command more respect in this setting, though the great (meta)human megacorps still balance them somewhat.

#4. Leave magic in, just make it incredibly rare. Humans can use magic in this setting, it is just very very rare for them to do so. This effectivly makes magic another one of your "GM tools" to whip out and use on the players in the appropriate situation. In this setting magic is very scare to almost everyone (because it is so rare) but is not necessarily any more powerful than it is in normal SR. The SR setting can be used almost without modification in the scenario.

#5. Ignore the problem! Sr exists as it does in the books and settings, it just never becomes a factor in your campaign. This may streach beliability a bit, but there is nothing that says you HAVE to include the magical opposition and obstacles on the runs you design. So don't.

-----

Though those other campaign ideas sound fun to me, I wouldn't use them. Mainly because I like SR, and I'm lazy and like to put the avaliable source material to the widest possible use possible. So I would do as Jhaiisiin and run a normal campaign, just downplay the magic side of it. There are lots of kinds of runs you could run without having to bring the magical aspect of the run into it.

I would also shy away from running a magician NPC. Mainly because in my experience GM PCs (even of the most minor sort) rarely work well. Instead have them pick up a contact who can handle various sorts of off-screen magical support. This could be anything from magical healing, to some astral scouting, to even summoning a spirit to help them penetrate a building or something.

I wouldn't try and force magic on the players if they don't want it. I've run games with no magician, or no hacker, or no what ever. It can all work fine. I would tailor my runs to the teams to an extent. After all, the Johnson is hardly going to hire the team with no mage to assault the astral plane or whatever. But I also like to think of these gaps in the teams as creative opportunities for my players. Like Jhaiisiin if you include it in your game, they will probably come around to it. They probably just need a break from it after all that D&D. Understandable.

[AngelisStorm]

You should think it's awsome and make up some totally amazing games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Seriously though, magic is really powerful. And the main anti magic tecnique is magic. So if no one wants to use magic, it means you can lower the overall power level of magic and still make it challenging. Instead of having to have teams of security mages (or one big badass with mundane security), you can use one midling security mage with your security and it will be a pretty decent challenge, since the team won't have their own mage to hose the opposition.

Also it makes magical threats ALOT more scary. You don't have to use uber spirits against the team, and your vampires don't have to have maxed out magic stats.

[JudgementLoaf]

If the adventures are planned reasonably and the players get a little creative I doubt it will be a problem. Magic has several glaring weaknesses that can be circumvented if the players think about it and come prepared. And don't forget: geek the mage first.

[Ravor]

Also remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a great Mage has the wisdom to simply shoot you in the face, maybe if you explain that it is perfectly acceptable, and in fact wise to be a Mage who only uses magic when mundane methods won't do the trick they may warm up to the idea of being a wiz-worm.

[krayola red]

Even a weak ass pansy mage could seriously mess up your team's day if they don't have any mojo in the group. Trying to sneak into that Ares facility with everyone having uber stealth scores and tricked out ruthenium camouflage? Whoops, you just got spotted by that watcher spirit chilling at the entrance, the one you had no chance of seeing because no one in your group could astrally perceive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Glyph]

Remember D&D, where no one ever wanted to play the cleric, even though a cleric was pretty essential? So you nearly always had a cleric who was an NPC? No reason you can't have an NPC mage as part of the group.

This actually has two effects. First, the team will have enough minimal magical support that they won't be completely exposed to magical attacks. Second, you can show them how Shadowrun magic works - have it be a mage with an armored jacket, with an Uzi, just to show them that mages in shadowrun don't have to wear no armor and be stuck with a dagger. When they see how useful magic can be, maybe some of them might get interested in playing a mage.

If not, there's nothing wrong with using NPCs for roles that the players would rather not play - it lets them play what they want, without worrying that they won't have a balanced team. Conversely, if I had three players that all wanted to play mages, then I would probably have at least one sammie/meatshield NPC to buff up the group.

[MaxMahem]

This actually has two effects. First, the team will have enough minimal magical support that they won't be completely exposed to magical attacks. Second, you can show them how Shadowrun magic works - have it be a mage with an armored jacket, with an Uzi, just to show them that mages in shadowrun don't have to wear no armor and be stuck with a dagger. When they see how useful magic can be, maybe some of them might get interested in playing a mage.

If not, there's nothing wrong with using NPCs for roles that the players would rather not play - it lets them play what they want, without worrying that they won't have a balanced team. Conversely, if I had three players that all wanted to play mages, then I would probably have at least one sammie/meatshield NPC to buff up the group.

I don't disagree with this. I just personally tend to shy away from GM PCs, even in minor, minor roles. Because I have not been pleased with the results. GMPC takes to much time in the spotlight, players turn to him to much for guidence, difficulty in keeping my GM and player knowledge speratet, GMPPC may end up to flat a character, ect. I guess I just do best with a clean break between the role of PC and GM.

Which is why I would prefer to handle the situation with a magician contact who could handles support on a contractual basis. Besides, most "magical support" tasks can be handled of screen, much like a hacker can.

[hyzmarca]

There are three, count them, three, non-intrusive quick mundane anti-magic solutions.

1) Spirit Pact: Power Pact: Magical Guard Give you of your PCs a spirit contact and a more or less permanent Power Pact that gives him to use Magical Guard.
Alternately, give him a wage magician contact have him rent the use of Magical Guard via Endowment by a Great Form spirit bound by the magician contact.
Both variations require the player to purchase the Counterspelling skill, but they are otherwise non-intrusive and yuou can provide BP incentives if you are so inclined.

2) Astral Hazing. One character with Astral Hazing can effectively reduce the effectiveness of any magician on average by 35-70%. Weak one's get hit very hard. Initiates with Filtering, not so much.

3) Give one of your PCs a wage mage contact and let him buy anchored spells, particularly Mana Static. A high-force Mana Static grenade created using Anchoring would be expensive, but it could also neutralize most magicians and spirits within range almost instantly.

And bonus points if th emundane anti-magic character has a cyberchainsaw and a boomstock.

[TheOOB]

You just have to realize that Johnson isn't going to hire a team that doesn't have a magician of some sort if the run will require some mojo. Awakened are rare in the sixth world, and the ones who have the skills suitable for running are even rarer, so it makes sense that plenty of teams won't have any awakened(or that their awakened members are adepts). You can still use magic in that setting, but it will a powerful, frighting, and difficult to counteract force. That mage throwing manabolts can take down your party faster then a troll with a machine gun(which might have started the geek the mage first trend) and a patrolling spirit is difficult to sneak past, and even more difficult to fight. And for times when magic is absolutely required, go out and hire a NPC mage.

[Critias]

[devil's advocate]

People just want guns and hacking? Play Cyberpunk: 2020 instead of running a GMNPC or butchering the setting into something it's not.

[/devil's advocate]

[Medicineman]

If nobody wants to use Magic,let them have their Way.U don't have to use Magic in every Setting/Run/Adventure. Magic can be (and should be outside of the Players Hand) seldom/rare
only 1 % is awakened and not everybody is a full fledged MAG 6 Skill 6 Mage (I'd guess only a Few are ) You can include Magic little by little
and yes a lowly Watcher can ruin the whole Run,but a GM doesn't have to include one in every adventure. If the Group knows that they have magic adversaries (I like that Word... Adversaries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) ) they can still hire a Mage

with a Dance without any magic
Medicineman

[Chrysalis]

I think it's great that they decided not have any magicians in the group. Personally I find that magic is not an integral part of game play. I think it also gives you a new dimension by being able to use it to add to the unknown of the world. I think you should just play a couple of games and as the players become more accustomed to the world than you can see if you want to add magic into it. It might be best to actually keep it as this danger that might surprise them every once in a while.

I also find that mages are overpowered in that they can also be really good at combat and then be able to cast spells. The whole problem with the D&D cleric (why twink when you have a whole class that does it for you) is kind of in the mage as well.

Magic in Shadowrun is pretty much like magic in D&D. It has been grafted on to the Shadowrun world. It also means that Shadowrun does not need magic to survive. The lack of magic is not like steampunk without the steam. It's a nice addition.

Please be aware also that I have a very different mindset than most fans here, who will insist that magic is integral. I find that Shadowrun is shiny enough even without magic, pixies, cybernetic captains, boys or ticking alligators.

[Bira]

I don't think a mage is essential to the group. As others have said, magic is rare, and most people probably go their entire lives without running across anything more magical than Karl Kombatmage sims. The only reason every run seems to involve some sort of magical security is because nearly every group has a magician.

If your players really want to stay away from magician characters, just let them, and make sure they only rarely, if ever, run into actual magical opposition. Magic can still exist in the world - they just happen to never run accross much of it.

[hobgoblin]

have them memorize the manatech chapter in arsenal, and keep street magic handy for those fab related queries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

now if we could only get some kind of lucifer lamp "googles" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kingboy]

[devil's advocate]

People just want guns and hacking? Play Cyberpunk: 2020 instead of running a GMNPC or butchering the setting into something it's not.

[/devil's advocate]

The only problem I have with this sentiment is that the CP2020 system blows...it's just not a good rule system. SR4 may not be perfect (as the continued debates on various points witnessed here can attest), but it's playable and fun, two aspects I find lacking in my past experiences with CP2020.

[Wesley Street]

There are plenty of ways to by-pass magical opposition without having a mage PC or NPC-for-hire, like Willpower rolls against spirits just to name one. Just make sure the players understand and develop a bag-of-tricks to deal with them.

Mages aren't gods and they can still take a bullet to the dome. The longest surviving PC in my game was a hacker. The shortest... a mage.

[paws2sky]

OP: Don't completely ditch magic if you want it to be Shadowrun. I am of the opinion that it is too integral to the setting.

My suggestion is to play up the rarity of magic. Not just in the number of magicians out there, but also the scarcity of qualified teachers to learn new spells from. If you look at the sample characters from the BBB NPC section, SRM Denver, and other sources, they each tend to have a very small selection of spells. Maybe 4 or so, tops. The BBB sample magicians are really odd because they tend to have a diverse selection of spells, but then, maybe that's what makes this qualified to be shadowrunners...

Adepts are less of an issue because they're not going to be doing much that a street samurai couldn't. Sure they have a couple oddball powers, but nothing that can directly wipe the floor with a whole group. So, maybe they're could be more common.

One big pitfall to be aware of: Spirits. A single Spirit of moderate power (say, Force 4) can wipe out a lightly armed group that does not have a magical firepower. Watchers and Astrally Projecting magicians are equally frustrating because they are (nearly) undetectable surveillance.

Another option is to play up something that is often played down: background count. Background count is an evil, nasty thing that can rapidly gimp any magician and/or spirit. Smart opposition will lure magicians into areas that weak their powers...

Also remember that a good Mage can kill you with her mind, but a great Mage has the wisdom to simply shoot you in the face, maybe if you explain that it is perfectly acceptable, and in fact wise to be a Mage who only uses magic when mundane methods won't do the trick they may warm up to the idea of being a wiz-worm.

This is a great sentiment.

The only problem I have with this sentiment is that the CP2020 system blows...it's just not a good rule system. SR4 may not be perfect (as the continued debates on various points witnessed here can attest), but it's playable and fun, two aspects I find lacking in my past experiences with CP2020.

Agreed.
SR ain't perfect (no system is, IMO), but its enjoyable.

-paws

[Malachi]

Remember D&D, where no one ever wanted to play the cleric, even though a cleric was pretty essential? So you nearly always had a cleric who was an NPC? No reason you can't have an NPC mage as part of the group.

Clerics are my favourite class... and I like to play Riggers in SR. I guess I'm the odd-ball all around.

[jago668]

Remember D&D, where no one ever wanted to play the cleric, even though a cleric was pretty essential? So you nearly always had a cleric who was an NPC? No reason you can't have an NPC mage as part of the group.

Actually I don't remember this as we had one guy that only ever wanted to play a cleric. Especially when the system moved to the 3.x mechanics and he didn't have to set aside spells specifically for healing. We had a couple of people that you always knew what they were going to play for a system.

[Ravor]

Actually I disagree, Magic is pretty easy to cut out of Shadowrun, just decide whether or not you want to keep Essence to limit implants, sure you've just trashed the setting, but just focus the campaign on the events of a single sprawl and gloss over how the world got so fragged up, do you honestly think most gutterpunks and even wageslaves can shift through the consaint corp propagana and figure out that no Ares Day doesn't really celebrate when Mr Knight single handedly turned back the Mongul Hoards led by Hilter on D-Day.

[deek]

I usually don't run very magic intensive games...again, magic is supposed to be rare. Its always worked out fine with my groups.

I'd take it out completely until you reach a point where someone is actually interested in it.

[JTNLANGE]

I agree that you can slowly integrate magic into SR. I do think the magic is integral to the setting. The saying is" Where man meets magic and machine" after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I personally have never had group that didn't include at least 1 awakened character, but at the same time when the player couldn't make it we always ran without him and I could keep the magic down enough that it was scary and a threat but didn't necessarily overpower them. There are always ways around everything even those that come at you from a realm you can't see.

Trevor L.