Can you bind a Sustaining Focus with Force>your Magic?, (what about a Power Focus?) Options

[stormcrow]

Title says it all. This isn't for munchkining, BTW, my primary char's Magic is 6 and we have yet to see any focus of any type of greater force than that. We do have a M4 shaman in our party and a F6 Detection Focus left over in the plunder from a team we ambushed.
While number of foci bound is limited by Magic and foci active is limited by Logic, we couldn't find anything binder-specific (other than Karma) limiting the Force of a Focus.

[pbangarth]

I don't see any limit to the Force of a focus that can be possessed and bound by a magician, other than the obvious ones of cost ( money and karma) and availability. A focus of that power will stick out in the astral, though. One should be prepared to defend possession of it, as attested to by the way your current party acquired it.

As one GM years ago told a player who manufactured a F8 weapon focus, "That's cool. Two days later a dragon shows up and says, 'You are too small and weak to possess such a device. I will hang on to it for you until you are ready.'" Heavy-handed, I agree, but the basic idea is that the more sparklies you possess, the more unwanted attention you draw.

Peter

[Ragewind]

I don't see any limit to the Force of a focus that can be possessed and bound by a magician, other than the obvious ones of cost ( money and karma) and availability. A focus of that power will stick out in the astral, though. One should be prepared to defend possession of it, as attested to by the way your current party acquired it.

As one GM years ago told a player who manufactured a F8 weapon focus, "That's cool. Two days later a dragon shows up and says, 'You are too small and weak to possess such a device. I will hang on to it for you until you are ready.'" Heavy-handed, I agree, but the basic idea is that the more sparklies you possess, the more unwanted attention you draw.

Peter

Boy I wish that would've been me, as in SR3 and SR4 I can easily take out a dragon. Either way he has a point, assuming you can get one there is no limit to what you can bind.

[Hagga]

He wouldn't want to have any other foci, though, for addiction.

And I wish we had some proper stats for dragons? I'm fairly sure that an adult dragon is going to have more than TWELVE FRIGGING MAGIC. Or LOFWYR.

[Ancient History]

Lofwyr invented a new kind of math to express his magic rating with.

There isn't a limit to the Force of any focus, but you are generally limited to (Magic x 5) Force worth of foci in general. At least at character gen.

[Hagga]

And the physical expression of that magic rating is a picture of Lofwyr giving you a stiff middle talon.

[Ancient History]

Analogy time!

[Glyph]

And that's the biggest problem with great dragons and immortal elves. Not that they are powerful, not that they are more powerful than the PCs are, and not even that they are more powerful than the PCs ever will be. The problem is that their level of power is completely disproportionate to the rest of the game world.

I don't have a problem with a great dragon who can maul a group of experienced runners, or an immortal elf who has double-digit levels of initiation and knows a few spells and metamagical techniques that no one else does. I do have a problem with dragons who can fight a modern air force and win, or immortal elves with high triple-digit initiations. Not because I have a problem with super-powerful NPCs, but because I have a problem with stats that make no sense in the context of the rest of the game world.

Beings like Lofwyr and Ehran should survive because in addition to their personal power, they also take sensible precautions and have contingency plans within contingency plans to deal with threats. They shouldn't survive by being no-selling bastards who laugh at nukes.

To be honest, that's one thing SR4 has done better - giving reasonable (but still formidable) stats for dragons and keeping the big players behind the scenes where they belong.

[Ragewind]

Ah common guys take a look at a "Great" Western Dragon, he only has like 23 boxes of health. That's completly doable once you get past his Hardened armor of 24, once again doable. Why not to long ago I posted a simple build on the thread " Punch and ...something" about the two pixies. I put together a pixie that can strike for 24-30+ Stun at minus half impact armor (w/ 20+ dice not including Edge of 7). That little guy can knock a dragon out in one shot! even if I didn't do enough stun/physical then the dragon would have to test or be "stunned" due to elec damage, and he only has like 25 BOD, barely enough to withstand the "Stun" Effect.

EDIT: The extra damage came after realizing Energy Aura can indeed go above +4

[Ancient History]

There are people in this world more powerful (if you would), or at the least better than you in every way. If your family was killed by illiterate criminals and you dedicated your life to study, you would never be as brilliant as Stephen Hawking. If you swam every day, you would never win Gold Medals like Michael Phelps. You would never become Dalai Lama, you probably won't be elected leader of a major nation and be able to order around generals and tanks and nukes and shit. That's real life, those are people you can't be - or at the least have very little chance of being.

That's okay though, because you can still deal with them. Lofwyr, bless his mighty claw, probably still has to use a big trode net to surf the Matrix when he doesn't want to just look over his minion's brain or use the screen. A TM or full-blown hacker can run rings around him in that arena. Harlequin and Ehran the scribe, despite their ancient elven wizardliness, needed some go-betweens to actually go do things. You might never be the president of Peru, but in Shadowrun you can negotiate terms with him while he combs his alpacas.

And if there's anything anyone should know by now in Shadowrun, its that nobody - and I mean nobody - is beyond an ass whoopin' (and possible untimely and messy demise). The fact that a shadowrunner going head to head with a great dragon might be considered a once-novel form of suicide is irrelevent, you might as well ask what the chances are for a drunken hobo with a Wednesday night special to assassinate the president in public. I have faith in y'all's abilities to tread lightly around those who can maim and kill you with nary a thought, because we humans have been dealing with things like that for centuries - we call them by different names though: royalty, politicians, cats (never, ever underestimate cats) and I believe evolution has twisted and bred in our species a stubborn knack for cautious greed when dealing with such people. Even a three-ton lizard has some angles you can work ("I know you have spells for blades, bullets, and magic, but tell me: how are you with military grade lasers? No don't answer me right away, that was just to distract you from the nanite-delivered toxin.")

[Ragewind]

There are people in this world more powerful (if you would), or at the least better than you in every way. If your family was killed by illiterate criminals and you dedicated your life to study, you would never be as brilliant as Stephen Hawking. If you swam every day, you would never win Gold Medals like Michael Phelps. You would never become Dalai Lama, you probably won't be elected leader of a major nation and be able to order around generals and tanks and nukes and shit. That's real life, those are people you can't be - or at the least have very little chance of being.

That's okay though, because you can still deal with them. Lofwyr, bless his mighty claw, probably still has to use a big trode net to surf the Matrix when he doesn't want to just look over his minion's brain or use the screen. A TM or full-blown hacker can run rings around him in that arena. Harlequin and Ehran the scribe, despite their ancient elven wizardliness, needed some go-betweens to actually go do things. You might never be the president of Peru, but in Shadowrun you can negotiate terms with him while he combs his alpacas.

And if there's anything anyone should know by now in Shadowrun, its that nobody - and I mean nobody - is beyond an ass whoopin' (and possible untimely and messy demise). The fact that a shadowrunner going head to head with a great dragon might be considered a once-novel form of suicide is irrelevent, you might as well ask what the chances are for a drunken hobo with a Wednesday night special to assassinate the president in public. I have faith in y'all's abilities to tread lightly around those who can maim and kill you with nary a thought, because we humans have been dealing with things like that for centuries - we call them by different names though: royalty, politicians, cats (never, ever underestimate cats) and I believe evolution has twisted and bred in our species a stubborn knack for cautious greed when dealing with such people. Even a three-ton lizard has some angles you can work ("I know you have spells for blades, bullets, and magic, but tell me: how are you with military grade lasers? No don't answer me right away, that was just to distract you from the nanite-delivered toxin.")

First off I love your reply, however the things you describe all have to be custom tailored by the GM, as anything that has stats can and will be beaten by a player. The Great Dragon you mention and the Elf, do not have stats so therefore are unkillable (at least I haven't seen them) yet the critters/Spirits/NPCs listed on paper so far can be defeated with nary a thought. I didn't make Superspeed the Hedgepixie to kill a Great Dragon, it was after the fact that I noticed I could one shot 1 or 2 Dragons a turn (incidentally with Setup he has 40+ dice not including Finishing Move). Yes there will always be more powerful people than you in the game, they only tend to crop up after you have made your appearance however. Even then if the GM is not skilled at creating characters even something they make can be inferior to the task at hand.

[pbangarth]

Of course, Ragewind, your analysis assumes that the pixie can get close enough to the dragon to punch it. That's where the true power of these 'immortal' entities comes from. They have been around long enough to know about Arnold Schwartzenpixies and have millenia ago figured how to deal with them two+ metres away.

Peter

[Ragewind]

Of course, Ragewind, your analysis assumes that the pixie can get close enough to the dragon to punch it. That's where the true power of these 'immortal' entities comes from. They have been around long enough to know about Arnold Schwartzenpixies and have millenia ago figured how to deal with them two+ metres away.

Peter

Once again the GM needs to Tailor make the dragon (/cough Metagame /cough), as the Dragon has no stats, the ones presented in the book have no way to stop the pixie. If you want to go that route one would assume the Pixie in question has done its homework and can get up to the Dragon. However theorizing on the supposed cat and mouse game between the dragon and the pixie has no end and is not worth arguing. I learned this speaking to Tarantula as both sides fire suppositions back and forth they fail to realize the pixie can still Murder any great dragon at whim (That of course have stats, saying he "Knows your coming" without being able to prove it within the rules of the game is worthless)

Incidentally Superspeed can only be a recent creation as he/she requires Bioware. Which , of course, didn't exist a millenia ago. Not exactly enough time nor a indication of even knowing about said Pixie if you ask me. Also considering its a brand new shadowrunning character, I doubt the Dragon would even know of the pixies existence.

This is just a pixie I made while at work, I am sure many others here could make something much more deadly if given the chance.

[pbangarth]

I belong to the school that says a team of six can kill anything by itself, if they can get to fight it. So yeah, dragons are vulnerable according to their stats. But right from the beginning of Shadowrun we have been told/warned/indoctrinated that dragons, especially Great ones have plans within plans with backups for the backups that fail. I don't see anything wrong with that. Let there be unattainable goals. It makes the dreamers happy.

Peter

[Hagga]

First off I love your reply, however the things you describe all have to be custom tailored by the GM, as anything that has stats can and will be beaten by a player. The Great Dragon you mention and the Elf, do not have stats so therefore are unkillable (at least I haven't seen them) yet the critters/Spirits/NPCs listed on paper so far can be defeated with nary a thought. I didn't make Superspeed the Hedgepixie to kill a Great Dragon, it was after the fact that I noticed I could one shot 1 or 2 Dragons a turn (incidentally with Setup he has 40+ dice not including Finishing Move). Yes there will always be more powerful people than you in the game, they only tend to crop up after you have made your appearance however. Even then if the GM is not skilled at creating characters even something they make can be inferior to the task at hand.

The critters section stats an average great dragon out. It is not impressive. Shadowrun is a world of mystery, myth come to life and ancient demigods that sit astride the earth and make it quake in terror. Yes, you're going to be able to say "HEY, HARLEQUIN" and then put a panther round into his crotch - but Harlequin is going to have fifty billion ward spells around his crotch that don't trigger wards and aren't going to be noticed by anyone except another IE who is looking, or a GD. Let's not even get started on Lofwyr - he probably has spells that trigger if his hide won't cause it to bounce off. He probably gets Predator Massages - he hands a team of really, really pissed off dracophobes predators and 50 clips and tells them to have fun, for christ sakes. These people are, in the fluff, unstoppable. If one of them really decides to do something, it gets done unless another of them stops it, or they run into a comparable force - like Deus.

[Glyph]

Ragewind, you are misremembering the setup maneuver. It lets you add the net hits to your next attack roll, not all of the dice.

[Ragewind]

The critters section stats an average great dragon out. It is not impressive. Shadowrun is a world of mystery, myth come to life and ancient demigods that sit astride the earth and make it quake in terror. Yes, you're going to be able to say "HEY, HARLEQUIN" and then put a panther round into his crotch - but Harlequin is going to have fifty billion ward spells around his crotch that don't trigger wards and aren't going to be noticed by anyone except another IE who is looking, or a GD. Let's not even get started on Lofwyr - he probably has spells that trigger if his hide won't cause it to bounce off. He probably gets Predator Massages - he hands a team of really, really pissed off dracophobes predators and 50 clips and tells them to have fun, for christ sakes. These people are, in the fluff, unstoppable. If one of them really decides to do something, it gets done unless another of them stops it, or they run into a comparable force - like Deus.

Emphasis mine

This is exactly what I am talking about, we don't actually know what they can/cannot do. Thus making them Immune to anything we can do. The second they begin to existent in the game, with a full compliment of stats and abilities, with a break down of their operations and supposed power structure, then and only then can they be killed. Anything else is hearsay and supposition, and not applicable to my argument. Don't be fooled, I am not asking nor wanting anyone to stat them out, I don't want to kill them nor does anyone I know want to. My point was (once again) that Superspeed can kill a Great Dragon as presented in the Shadowrun Rulebooks without breaking a sweat, and if a GM were to bring said dragon in to take my Rating 8 foci it better have stats since I am not handing it over all easy like. Incidentally if they hit the pixie they would probably instant kill
Superspeed ...as its a pixie not a Troll.

[Ragewind]

Ragewind, you are misremembering the setup maneuver. It lets you add the net hits to your next attack roll, not all of the dice.

Well it effectively lets you roll twice, I.E.

1) I roll 20 dice, get 6 hits w/ Setup

2) I actually punch the guy with 20 dice and get 11 hits

3) add 6+11 = 17

Sure its not done all at once, but the end result is the same.

[Hagga]

We do have a rough guideline know what they can do - anything an ED Wizard, Swordmaster and Lightbringer could, and a few things that are purely Draconic in nature. Or, for Aina, Nethermancer tricks. For Alachia, bitchqueen tricks. It says in the back of the original Harlequin adventure "Harlequin does not have stats because Harlequin can do whatever you want." And as has been said - most people can kill the great dragon as presented in the book at the end. A reasonably high grade initiate mage could one shot them with the burning of edge.

If I want Harlequin to oil up, do ten lines of coke and ride his bike out the window screaming "NANANANANANA" he can, and he'll laugh doing it and probably cause the requivalent of a thor shot impact at the bottom which he floats out of.

[CoyoteNZ]

Sorry Ragewind, but i'm pretty sure you are wrong with your example below...

Well it effectively lets you roll twice, I.E.

1) I roll 20 dice, get 6 hits w/ Setup

2) I actually punch the guy with 20 dice and get 11 hits

3) add 6+11 = 17

Sure its not done all at once, but the end result is the same.

reading the section,

The character makes an attack test, inflicting no damage if successful. Instead, her net hits are added as dice pool bonus to the next attack she makes against that opponent.

so, step two would actually be roll 20 dice, + the net hits from the setup maneuver.
This is a lot different than adding the first amount of net hits to the second amount of net hits.

Still helpful, but only adding the net hits to the dice pool of the second attack is no where as powerful as adding twice the attack dice.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ

[darthmord]

I always assumed the GD stats in the books (unless for a specific GD) were for the average new GD. Named ones were going to be different than the 'average/typical' baseline.

[pbangarth]

I think Ragewind has a point, that any creature that has stats within the rule structure is both empowered by them and limited by them. One thing that many people overlook, including I think Ragewind, is that the stats include Mental Attributes. If a character, PC or NPC, is played correctly, those stats should affect how she approaches the world around her and how she interacts with others, plans, reacts, etc. They are just as important as the Physical Attributes.

One example where people often grossly ignore this factor is with spirits. Over in the 800 point thread, I have a Voodoo magician, Uncle Zola, who can survive summoning and binding Force 12 spirits without the use of Edge. Such an entity has INT and LOG of 12, and is WAY smarter than Uncle Zola. He should not be able to just manipulate this being without getting his ideas and wishes twisted and handed to him on a plate unless he is very, very careful or very, very placating. Great Dragons at the back of SR4 are at that level of intelligence and higher and have lived for thousands of years.

Ragewind... rages?... against the handwaving aspect of saying such beings can handle anything you throw at them. But, come on! You think Einstein couldn't have grasped that Unified Field Theory if he had had a couple of centuries at age-25 processing power? Assuming a hyper-intelligent being has the ability to outthink a PC of ordinary intelligence is not dodging the efforts of the PC's player. Assuming it cannot do so is the player dodging the obvious.

Peter

[DireRadiant]

I am more then my stats. Stats are merely numbers. My stats will not defeat you. The things that are not my Stats will defeat you.

Most often, you will defeat yourself by defining me by my stats.

[Cthulhudreams]

This is the weird thing about shadowrun. The dragons as written up are very tough, but individually beatable. What makes them especially hardcore is when you consider that they own private armies.

But then like one of them solos the entire iranian army, or everyone's army in Denver, without support. Which makes no sense as militarys have super bad ass guns, and in those cases the dragon's private army of badassery isn't standing around.

[Ragewind]

I think Ragewind has a point, that any creature that has stats within the rule structure is both empowered by them and limited by them. One thing that many people overlook, including I think Ragewind, is that the stats include Mental Attributes. If a character, PC or NPC, is played correctly, those stats should affect how she approaches the world around her and how she interacts with others, plans, reacts, etc. They are just as important as the Physical Attributes.

One example where people often grossly ignore this factor is with spirits. Over in the 800 point thread, I have a Voodoo magician, Uncle Zola, who can survive summoning and binding Force 12 spirits without the use of Edge. Such an entity has INT and LOG of 12, and is WAY smarter than Uncle Zola. He should not be able to just manipulate this being without getting his ideas and wishes twisted and handed to him on a plate unless he is very, very careful or very, very placating. Great Dragons at the back of SR4 are at that level of intelligence and higher and have lived for thousands of years.

Ragewind... rages?... against the handwaving aspect of saying such beings can handle anything you throw at them. But, come on! You think Einstein couldn't have grasped that Unified Field Theory if he had had a couple of centuries at age-25 processing power? Assuming a hyper-intelligent being has the ability to outthink a PC of ordinary intelligence is not dodging the efforts of the PC's player. Assuming it cannot do so is the player dodging the obvious.

Peter

Well I typically ignore the mental stats of such creatures due to the fact that no matter how Clever and Experienced they are made out to be. The GM who is running them typically isn't. Now this is even more true online where everyone here is a faceless Icon. I do know people who are so "Evil" that when I play in their games my character litterly walks around making Spot checks every two seconds. Goblins or Go Gangers in his game should never be taken at face value, as he can create some deadly combos or situations. I myself am quite experienced in this area as well as my players frequently struggle with tasks they initially thought was going to be easy. In essence it becomes a arms race to see who can out think the other, but 90% of the time the GM's either do not posses the capability to create something so intricate or they do not want to be bothered to do so.

Basically what it comes down to is I look at its capabilities first (Powers, Special Rules, Stats relevant to combat based on game system) before I look at how smart the thing is. In other words its something you cannot count on most of the time.