Chapeshange - Extinct Animals?, T-Rex? Options

[Chrysalis]

For me to change into a chocobo, do I first have to breed a Gold chocobo?

[TheOOB]

The assensing route is more or less what I was getting at, but if your GM is lenient you don't even need that. It's obvious due to shadowrun rules that the act of seeing someone or something with your eyes(or with eyes you spent essence on) grants you some kind of connection to the target. It's why you can cast a manabolt on someone you can see, even if they are through 5 feet of solid, yet transparent glass, but you can't a spell on someone right next to you in a pitch black room even if you can hear them yelling at the top of their lungs.

You are not seeing the aura of the target, but you still are seeing them, their presence is something you can identify, something you can manipulate with sorcery.

Anyways, just my two Nuyen.

[hyzmarca]

As a GM, I would nix the dinosaurs on the grounds that they're paranormal cirtters.

I strongly recommend that PCs watch Tom Rex: Dinosaur Cop, airing Friday at 10PM on the Ares Broadcasting Company. Notice how Detective Rex throws around Chatoic World left and right? Yeah, all Tyranosaurs can do that; they have Innate Spell: Chaotic World. It is one of the things that makes them so dangerous, but is also very useful for diffusing dangerous situations without bloodshed. And it's all true. One of the consultants on the show is, in fact, an immortal dinosaur shapeshifted into a human form. The whole show is based loosely on his exploits as a police officer during the Cretaceous period.

[Ragewind]

There is nothing mechanical that would prevent such a thing, I have noticed some people saying "You have to see it, or you need to see its aura"

Actually..

No you don't, nothing in the game rules support this, you don't even need to have ever SEEN one before to turn into it. The only limitation is that we don't know the stats for a T-Rex. That's the only thing stopping this from working, however if you sit down and make some stats then there is no problem.3

As a GM, I would nix the dinosaurs on the grounds that they're paranormal cirtters.

I am not sure (by your post) if your playing around or not, but this statement is false. Dinosaurs are not paranormal, anymore that a house cat is. Once again this does not prevent the use of the spell.

[Larme]

But what about the fact that it must be a natural critter? Surely critters that don't exist aren't natural, just because they used to exist. Dinosaurs naturally died off, if they came back it would definitely be un-natural. To me, natural means it exists in the natural state of nature. You might argue that an animal extincted by humans would still be fair game, since they died off through "non-natural" means (since the Astral thinks that humans are unnatural, more or less). But surely ones that disappeared due to a naturally occurring mass-extinction could no longer be considered normal, everyday critters...

[Ragewind]

But what about the fact that it must be a natural critter? Surely critters that don't exist aren't natural, just because they used to exist. Dinosaurs naturally died off, if they came back it would definitely be un-natural. To me, natural means it exists in the natural state of nature. You might argue that an animal extincted by humans would still be fair game, since they died off through "non-natural" means (since the Astral thinks that humans are unnatural, more or less). But surely ones that disappeared due to a naturally occurring mass-extinction could no longer be considered normal, everyday critters...

Your thinking to Hard Larme, just because they died off does not mean they were ever not natural. Your thinking of Extinct vs Non-Extinct. Also if you want to get technical IIRC we still don't know exactly how they died. Maybe a meteor hit the earth...what that natural? No the Meteor MURDERED them, no different from us killing off one. Your just getting your definitions mixed up.

No

In Shadowrun a Natural creature is defined as not having access to paranormal abilities I.E> "Magic", the second I start seeing T-rex's using the Conceal Critter power (/shudder) then I might see where your coming from. Even then its probably just a freak, and not a representative of all T-Rex's.

[Neraph]

But what about the fact that it must be a natural critter? Surely critters that don't exist aren't natural, just because they used to exist. Dinosaurs naturally died off, if they came back it would definitely be un-natural. To me, natural means it exists in the natural state of nature. You might argue that an animal extincted by humans would still be fair game, since they died off through "non-natural" means (since the Astral thinks that humans are unnatural, more or less). But surely ones that disappeared due to a naturally occurring mass-extinction could no longer be considered normal, everyday critters...

Are you saying that Tazmanian wolf thingie is no longer a natural animal, since it no longer exists (to our knowledge)? How about living fossiles, which are animals that are evolutionary identicle to their ancestors from billions of years ago (but I thought evolution was an ongoing process that didn't end...) like the alligator and the frilled shark and the horseshoe crab.

Besides, what about learning the spell from a Dragon that was around when the dinosaurs were, or from an Immortal Elf?

All you need to learn a spell is the spell formula. You don't need to ever see a fireball in order to learn the spell fireball. Nor do you need to see Improved Invisibility in order to learn it from a spell formula you downloaded from the 'trix.

[TheOOB]

Today on UCAS today, the last bald eagle, held in captivity for years, has now perished, leading to the unfortunate extinction of this proud animal once held as the symbol of American freedom. In related news, every magician capable of changing forms into a bald eagle(presumed to account for 99.9% of all sightings of the majestic bird) have reported that they no longer can change form into this animal, proving that no more natural bald eagles exist. Here is what one local had to say:

"I mean, I know bald eagles where rare and all, but I saw them flying over head all the time so I didn't think much of it, but now that I know they where all shape shifted magicians, and that there really was only one eagle left...well it's just kind of sad."

This news comes as a great shock to most people, especially follow the sudden inability for magicians to take the form of a three-toes sloth last month, signaling the death knell of that species. More on this at 11.

[Neraph]

FUDGE! For that matter, I'm going to custom make a Warform Chimera, and, since it's an animal, I'll SHAPECHANGE into it. Or, at very worst, I'll (Specific Warform) Form into it.

[Ragewind]

Today on UCAS today, the last bald eagle, held in captivity for years, has now perished, leading to the unfortunate extinction of this proud animal once held as the symbol of American freedom. In related news, every magician capable of changing forms into a bald eagle(presumed to account for 99.9% of all sightings of the majestic bird) have reported that they no longer can change form into this animal, proving that no more natural bald eagles exist. Here is what one local had to say:

"I mean, I know bald eagles where rare and all, but I saw them flying over head all the time so I didn't think much of it, but now that I know they where all shape shifted magicians, and that there really was only one eagle left...well it's just kind of sad."

This news comes as a great shock to most people, especially follow the sudden inability for magicians to take the form of a three-toes sloth last month, signaling the death knell of that species. More on this at 11.

LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Larme]

Your thinking to Hard Larme, just because they died off does not mean they were ever not natural.

That's not what I said. I said it means that they are not currently natural animals, they can only exist through unnatural means. They used to be natural of course, but they aren't anymore.

Your thinking of Extinct vs Non-Extinct. Also if you want to get technical IIRC we still don't know exactly how they died. Maybe a meteor hit the earth...what that natural? No the Meteor MURDERED them, no different from us killing off one. Your just getting your definitions mixed up.

I beg to differ. A meteor is a natural entity that had no human intervention making it crash into earth. The astral plane is very sensitive to human intervention. That's why the Astral knows the difference between natural genetic evolution and genetech. Genetech uses the same amino acids to produce DNA that's chemically identical to regular DNA, but the Astral can tell the difference and you lose essence. Presumably, pollution and hunting by humans killing the last bald eagle would also be recognized by the astral as non-natural and might not prevent someone from changing into it. I'm not mixing up definitions, you're missing every subtlety of my argument and attacking straw men that I never argued for.

In Shadowrun a Natural creature is defined as not having access to paranormal abilities I.E> "Magic", the second I start seeing T-rex's using the Conceal Critter power (/shudder) then I might see where your coming from. Even then its probably just a freak, and not a representative of all T-Rex's.

That's a better argument, but not one that's ever stated in the text. I just don't see how the word natural can fit creatures that only exist through the use of magic. It doesn't matter whether they once existed naturally if magic or genetic engineering is the only way for them to walk the earth today, IMO.

Are you saying that Tazmanian wolf thingie is no longer a natural animal, since it no longer exists (to our knowledge)? How about living fossiles, which are animals that are evolutionary identicle to their ancestors from billions of years ago (but I thought evolution was an ongoing process that didn't end...) like the alligator and the frilled shark and the horseshoe crab.

I'm saying if it's no longer naturally occurring without the use of magic or technology, then it's not natural. Though I would allow that animals killed unnaturally by humans might still be shiftable (in response to Ragewind's very polite comment). Again, this is because the astral treats humans and their technology as unnatural. You need to leave your modern understanding of nature at the door to think about the astral. IRL, humans are natural creatures and everything we do is in accordance with natural laws. But the Astral doesn't think so, hence essence being lowered by adding artificial genes which are chemically identical to natural genes.

Besides, what about learning the spell from a Dragon that was around when the dinosaurs were, or from an Immortal Elf?

All you need to learn a spell is the spell formula. You don't need to ever see a fireball in order to learn the spell fireball. Nor do you need to see Improved Invisibility in order to learn it from a spell formula you downloaded from the 'trix.

I never made this argument, I argued against the idea that your knowledge matters. Your knowledge is irrelevant. All that matters is whether the animal is natural or not. And natural is not going to be determined by some dictionary, what matters is how the astral makes the distinction between natural and not. It seems pretty clear to me that animals which naturally died off and could not exist in nature without magic, time travel, or genetic reconstitution are simply non-natural.

[Stahlseele]

I beg to differ. A meteor is a natural entity that had no human intervention making it crash into earth.

now think about what thor shots are . .

[WeaverMount]

It seems pretty clear to me that animals which naturally died off and could not exist in nature without magic, time travel, or genetic reconstitution are simply non-natural.

I agree with you in principle. What gets me though is wonderinging how 'successful' would a Jurassic Park have to be before they were considered natural again? Nature must have some mechanism for getting essence scores back up to 6 or life would have died out from mutation induced essence loss a very long time ago.

If I had to rule I'd lift the low essence healing mechanics. Shape shifting into a given animal form comes with a penalty equal to 6 minus the average essence of the population.

[Stahlseele]

ok, let's stick with this natural nonsense for a bit . .
a clone did not get created naturally either, but if i clone you a sheep Dolly4.0 you can still shift into dolly . . even if i do decide to give it glow in the dark wool or something like that . .
and what happens, if 2 cloned animals of the same species(one male, one female) reproduce naturally?
is their offspring natural?

[GreyBrother]

Remember, genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. For instance, we can in theory splice the native plants' talent for nitrogen fixation into a terran plant.

[Cadmus]

ok, let's stick with this natural nonsense for a bit . .
a clone did not get created naturally either, but if i clone you a sheep Dolly4.0 you can still shift into dolly . . even if i do decide to give it glow in the dark wool or something like that . .
and what happens, if 2 cloned animals of the same species(one male, one female) reproduce naturally?
is their offspring natural?

Nope Those two sheep are now held by local authorities for copyright infringement, per agreements with our clients we of course can not discuss anything on any case with pending litigation,

[Stahlseele]

i'm sorry, i don't speak legalese O.o

[WeaverMount]

Alpha Centuri is one of the first things i put on a computer. Right up there with VLC and notepad++

[Stahlseele]

contxt?

[WeaverMount]

contxt?

Grey brother was quoting it.

[Stahlseele]

i do not get it O.o

[Larme]

now think about what thor shots are . .

A thor shot (assuming it's a mass driver, I'm not actually sure) is a human using artificial means to propel an asteroid. According to magic, the things humans do with technology are not natural, they're the opposite of that. I know it's silly, but it's how the game world operates.

I agree with you in principle. What gets me though is wonderinging how 'successful' would a Jurassic Park have to be before they were considered natural again? Nature must have some mechanism for getting essence scores back up to 6 or life would have died out from mutation induced essence loss a very long time ago.

I'm not sure I understand where you're going. I don't think reconstituted dinosaurs would have lower essence, neither would vat-grown person. Essence is not something that follows rational consistent rules because a) it's magic, and b) it mostly exists to serve game balance purposes. As long as something is an animal it can have an essence score, but that's unrelated to whether you can change into it.

ok, let's stick with this natural nonsense for a bit . .
a clone did not get created naturally either, but if i clone you a sheep Dolly4.0 you can still shift into dolly . . even if i do decide to give it glow in the dark wool or something like that . .
and what happens, if 2 cloned animals of the same species(one male, one female) reproduce naturally?
is their offspring natural?

I don't get it. Are you saying that, under my logic, if you cloned one sheep then all sheep would become unnatural? I don't think that follows from what I've been saying in any way. And no, you couldn't shift into a sheep with glowing wool, because that's not a natural animal, it would have to be a genetically modified animal. Maybe, if you waited 10 million years, you'd end up with naturally evolved glowing subterranean sheep, but I doubt it. It doesn't serve much purpose to decide if clones or their offspring are natural. What we want to know is what can be shifted into. You could be a sheep, but you could not be a sheep with genes that have been modified by humans because from a magical perspective, human intervention is unnatural.

[Stahlseele]

soo . . the rock falling by itself is natural, something giving it a push into the right direction so it FALLS BY ITSELF is NOT natural? @.@

[Larme]

soo . . the rock falling by itself is natural, something giving it a push into the right direction so it FALLS BY ITSELF is NOT natural? @.@

It's magic. It doesn't have to make rational sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Magic knows the difference between natural and man-made, even if they're made out of the exact same stuff, because it's magical and can do whatever it wants.

[Jaid]

the astral plane doesn't have anything to do with how essence loss is determined. you lose essence when you get genetically modified because your pattern is being altered, even if it is while you are still nothing more than a fertilised egg. you still have genetic material, and altering that genetic material causes essence loss because it is incorporating something that isn't you into you. it doesn't matter if your arm gets torn off by a bear or chopped off by a surgeon, it matters whether or not someone grafts a robotic limb in it's place. it doesn't matter if your genetics are being altered by natural means or unnatural, it matters whether those wacky bat sonar genetics that got put into you match up with the rest of your genetics, and they don't, whether or not they got there by magical means (such as HMHVV) or technological means (such as genetic engineering) or even by evolution. (i think it's safe to say that there are no precedents for the spontaneous evolution of bat-like echolocation, but hey, you never know...) heck, by the time they get into you, they don't really match up to bat genetics either, because they would have to be modified to attach onto your genetic material.

now i suppose you could steadily alter generation after generation of humans to very gradually reach the point where echolocation actually does match up with the rest of their genetic material perfectly. i doubt anyone's done much research on it though... it's a bit easier and cheaper to just hand someone a radar or ultrasound sensor and call it a day.