Chapeshange - Extinct Animals?, T-Rex? Options

[GreyBrother]

i do not get it O.o

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%E2%...tauri#Sonstiges
Mögest du erleuchtet werden.

[Stahlseele]

ah, now i get it ^^

[Neraph]

That's not what I said. I said it means that they are not currently natural animals, they can only exist through unnatural means. They used to be natural of course, but they aren't anymore.



I beg to differ. A meteor is a natural entity that had no human intervention making it crash into earth. The astral plane is very sensitive to human intervention. That's why the Astral knows the difference between natural genetic evolution and genetech. Genetech uses the same amino acids to produce DNA that's chemically identical to regular DNA, but the Astral can tell the difference and you lose essence. Presumably, pollution and hunting by humans killing the last bald eagle would also be recognized by the astral as non-natural and might not prevent someone from changing into it. I'm not mixing up definitions, you're missing every subtlety of my argument and attacking straw men that I never argued for.



That's a better argument, but not one that's ever stated in the text. I just don't see how the word natural can fit creatures that only exist through the use of magic. It doesn't matter whether they once existed naturally if magic or genetic engineering is the only way for them to walk the earth today, IMO.



I'm saying if it's no longer naturally occurring without the use of magic or technology, then it's not natural. Though I would allow that animals killed unnaturally by humans might still be shiftable (in response to Ragewind's very polite comment). Again, this is because the astral treats humans and their technology as unnatural. You need to leave your modern understanding of nature at the door to think about the astral. IRL, humans are natural creatures and everything we do is in accordance with natural laws. But the Astral doesn't think so, hence essence being lowered by adding artificial genes which are chemically identical to natural genes.



I never made this argument, I argued against the idea that your knowledge matters. Your knowledge is irrelevant. All that matters is whether the animal is natural or not. And natural is not going to be determined by some dictionary, what matters is how the astral makes the distinction between natural and not. It seems pretty clear to me that animals which naturally died off and could not exist in nature without magic, time travel, or genetic reconstitution are simply non-natural.

You're assuming nature itself is an all-knowing, all-powerful being capable of preventing mortal magic. You made Nature God in a game that has no one, set all powerful being. That is outside the game's rules to affect.

[HardSix]

My take is slightly different... this came up in one of our ancient SR2 games (I think this was pre-Jurassic Park movie), and after mulling it over, I ruled that the PC (or any other spellcaster) can't shapechange into any extinct animal because it isn't part of the "living Gaiasphere." So no shapechanging into dodo birds or peregrine falcons either.

FWIW, I never required caster's to have assensed the animal(s) beforehand, but I did require that they had at least read about it or watched a couple 204x trid documentaries about it.

Hmmm, if I still had a gaming group, now I think I'd tweak my original "living Gaiasphere" further so that there had to be enough living representives to be able to breed a sustainable population in the wild. So no one-off creating a single specimin just to now have access to it as a Shapechange form.

(Course, that wouldn't stop someone like SK or Ares creating a breeding program. Imagine 'Runners botching a B&E and facing off against SK guards who the corp wizworm Shapechanges into (mega)raptors, or a T-Rex merged with an insect spirit.)

[Ragewind]

Once agian guys, unless the creature is listed as a Paranormal Critter it is a Natural creature.

Websters dictionary has this to say

Paranormal
Adjective

1. Seemingly outside normal sensory channels.

2. Not in accordance with scientific laws; "what seemed to be paranormal manifestations".

A T-Rex (Living or Dead), is a natural creature.

For those who have been spouting sillyness about the "Astral knowing" has no basis or support in the shadowrun rules, if you would like to houserule that in your games that's fine. You also seem to have come to the conclusion that the creature needs to currently EXIST in the 2000-3000 year time frame in order to Shapechange/Critter form into it. Again this is a false assumption, the only thing preventing someone from turning into a T-Rex is Shadowrun has no current rule set for it. That means either the GM or the Player needs to come up with some stats for it.

[AllTheNothing]

What are peoples view on the Shapechange spells.

Could I transform myself into ANY non-awakened animal? Even extinct ones?

For some reason I find the notion of becoming a Pterodactyl rather appealing if I need to fly and lift something at the same time.

Or become a T-rex when hungry ^_^

I would chose something that doesn't stand out that much.
Just think how the Star and KE would react seeing a dinosaur running aruond dowtown (and that's if it is just running, if it starts eating peoples); even in the barrens things would be bad because you have a dreckload of SINless to eat but you are going to be hunted because your snacks are going on the trid, if they catch you changing form spirits help you, you've just become a ghoul who doesn't have the excuse of the infection, even if you don't eat people you are going to have hunter/poachers at your throat (maybe it's talesma, if not it's still a quite a game), and lets not get into corps who want to catch the new thing (Jurassic Prak? Wow).
Useless to say your reputation is at risk, and at an high one too.

[Neraph]

or peregrine falcons either.

Peregrine falcons are not extinct.

[ludomastro]

I would chose something that doesn't stand out that much.
Just think how the Star and KE would react seeing a dinosaur running aruond dowtown (and that's if it is just running, if it starts eating peoples); even in the barrens things would be bad because you have a dreckload of SINless to eat but you are going to be hunted because your snacks are going on the trid, if they catch you changing form spirits help you, you've just become a ghoul who doesn't have the excuse of the infection, even if you don't eat people you are going to have hunter/poachers at your throat (maybe it's talesma, if not it's still a quite a game), and lets not get into corps who want to catch the new thing (Jurassic Prak? Wow).
Useless to say your reputation is at risk, and at an high one too.

And here is a perfectly good in-game reason to both allow the shapechange as well as moderate the benefits that the player gets.

[Ragewind]

I would chose something that doesn't stand out that much.
Just think how the Star and KE would react seeing a dinosaur running aruond dowtown (and that's if it is just running, if it starts eating peoples); even in the barrens things would be bad because you have a dreckload of SINless to eat but you are going to be hunted because your snacks are going on the trid, if they catch you changing form spirits help you, you've just become a ghoul who doesn't have the excuse of the infection, even if you don't eat people you are going to have hunter/poachers at your throat (maybe it's talesma, if not it's still a quite a game), and lets not get into corps who want to catch the new thing (Jurassic Prak? Wow).
Useless to say your reputation is at risk, and at an high one too.

I don't know about you but if my character was to shapechange into a T-Rex, I would (If I was Hungrey@!) probably go down to a ATM and withdraw some cash then head over to Mickie D's and grab like 500 burgers.

Oh wait

Shadowrun

I will go down to my ATM Use my comlink and Withdraw some cash debit from my wireless account, so I can go down to Mickie D's Stuffer Shack to grab some Buzz Blitz (Chug The Bomb!) and 1000 Krill Bars.

Nothing too much out of the ordinary mind you, and if KE and Lone Star came up and asked me a question (oh wait they won't because my comlink broadcasts my SIN info) [oh and I have a license for being a Mage], I would simply nod and carry on my way, I am sure they wouldn't mind at all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

AllForNothing, nothing says in the spell description that you need to cater to the "Beasts" whim (or if indeed you ever loose your mind in any shape or form). If you imagine PC's eating SINless to placate their (not so raging) hunger then I suggest you reevaluate your outlook on the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Larme]

For those who have been spouting sillyness about the "Astral knowing" has no basis or support in the shadowrun rules, if you would like to houserule that in your games that's fine.

I'm anthropomorphizing the astral to explain myself clearer. The astral doesn't literally know anything. But there is a clear difference between natural things and technological things. You could have a natural process underground that turns carbon into diamonds, and those diamonds would be easier to enchant and affect with magic as natural materials. Or, you could take some carbon and put it in your diamond-maker. The artificial diamonds that come out would be identical to the natural diamonds, except they would count as "processed" materials, making them harder to affect with magic because of a reduced astral presence. On the astral plane, human intervention makes things non-natural, even if the things themselves are identical to what you'd find in nature. So I'd beg to differ that my argument has "no basis or support in the shadowrun rules."

I'd also point out that Paranormal and Natural are not given their dictionary meanings when used in Shadowrun. They are Game Terms, with distinct meanings for the system. A dictionary doesn't tell us what they mean authoritatively. The only place to derive their meaning is from the rules. Because the rules treat human intervention as a non-natural force, I therefore think that animals which are naturally extinct and cannot exist on the earth without the non-natural intervention of humans cannot be termed natural under the rules of Shadowrun. Because they no longer exist, turning into a dinosaur would be effectively turning into an imaginary creature, which is just as unnatural and unshiftable as a paranormal one.

[MaxMahem]

I might allow it, but I would make the player work for it. A run to recover some fossilized mosquitoes containing dinosaur DNA might be called for.

Frankly as a GM I don't see the need to get into an involved discussion about what counts as a natural and what counts as a para-critter. I am content to simply say 'nope doesn't work, it's magic.' and call it a day.

YMMV though.

[Larme]

Well, if I was the GM for all the dumpshockers, I'd just go "NO DINOSAURS BASTARDS!" The reason I'm trying to make an argument about it is that I can't tell them how to play, I have to convince them. But since magic doesn't work according to logic, I can't use logic. So it's not that easy...

[Jaid]

I'm anthropomorphizing the astral to explain myself clearer. The astral doesn't literally know anything. But there is a clear difference between natural things and technological things. You could have a natural process underground that turns carbon into diamonds, and those diamonds would be easier to enchant and affect with magic as natural materials. Or, you could take some carbon and put it in your diamond-maker. The artificial diamonds that come out would be identical to the natural diamonds, except they would count as "processed" materials, making them harder to affect with magic because of a reduced astral presence. On the astral plane, human intervention makes things non-natural, even if the things themselves are identical to what you'd find in nature. So I'd beg to differ that my argument has "no basis or support in the shadowrun rules."

actually, i'm pretty sure modern science can tell the difference between natural and man-made diamonds. a quick wikipedia search on man-made diamonds turned up an article that indicated there was a distinct difference in the past, at least, but did not indicate whether that still holds true.

[Ryu]

actually, i'm pretty sure modern science can tell the difference between natural and man-made diamonds. a quick wikipedia search on man-made diamonds turned up an article that indicated there was a distinct difference in the past, at least, but did not indicate whether that still holds true.

If one tried to simulate a real diamond with the CVD method, I don´t see what would be the problem. The usual goal will be controlling the physical properties for industrial purposes. The russian method was on the telly a few years ago, they had loads of chemical impurities at that time.

[Ragewind]

Well, if I was the GM for all the dumpshockers, I'd just go "NO DINOSAURS BASTARDS!"

Wow...just wow.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/newbie.gif)

[Larme]

actually, i'm pretty sure modern science can tell the difference between natural and man-made diamonds. a quick wikipedia search on man-made diamonds turned up an article that indicated there was a distinct difference in the past, at least, but did not indicate whether that still holds true.

This is true, I was assuming 2070s era processes which made perfect diamonds that replicated nature (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Neraph]

Larme, you do realize that having an all-knowing, semi-sentient nature would end up being a house rule right? There is nothing to stop someone from casting a spell to turn them into any animal, at all. That actually includes Chimera and Warforms, if you think about it.

Now, some balancing factors would be to:
A) Have them have to learn the spell from someone who could cast the spell to turn into said animal (Anyone read the Belgariad? They have a number of beautiful examples of having to be taught a shapechanged form "No, the tail's too long.. No, you're snout is too big... Don't forget the ears!).
B) Having to assense the animal in question.

If either of those factors were filled, I don't see why magic couldn't replicate the form.

[Apathy]

It's true that there's nothing in canon requiring viewing or assensing of a critter in order to be able to shapechange into the critter. However, there's nothing indicating that you can shapechange into them either. For that matter, there's no canon statement regarding the actual existence of dinosaurs.

[possible GM responses that don't violate canon]:

• Sorry, the velociraptor didn't really exist. Nothing existed before the First Age, which was only a couple million years ago. Those bones the palientologists dug up were placed there by a capricious free spirit in an attempt to discredit Christianity. (I'm sure the Creationists would flip over that one.)
• Sorry, dinosaurs were all awakened. Yup, all of them. The all had innate spell - slaughter(self). Quite inefficient really - no wonder they died out...

Beyond that, I don't like the idea that a mage could design a spell to change into something, when he wasn't really sure what the thing he's turning into even looks like. Fossile records only show the skeletal structure, but our assumptions about how that skeleton was fleshed out are only just assumptions.

[Larme]

I'm not proposing a house rule, I'm describing how the astral plane works. You're getting misled by my example. As I stated, I don't think the astral is literally conscious, it doesn't know anything. But somehow natural chemicals are more magically active than processed ones, even if they are chemically identical. Also, artificial genes, made from the exact same stuff as natural genes, reduce essence. That's how it works, and it's not a house rule. From that, we can extrapolate that human intervention has an impact on astral forms, and thus the method of something's becoming extinct (natural or man-made) would impact whether that creature can be resurrected with magic or not.

As for your proposals, aren't you accusing me of making house rules, and then proposing your own in response? How does that work? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Regardless, as I've argued before, it shouldn't be your own knowledge that determines whether you can shift into an animal form, because that creates too many problems. Like if you're blind from birth and don't know what calico is, you couldn't become a calico cat? Assensing couldn't really get around that problem either, because colors aren't literally represented on the astral. You're proposing that knowledge enter into it, but only in a really superficial way which doesn't seem that consistent to me.

Regardless, the question of whether magic in general (as in a new spell) could replicate extinct or imaginary animals is wide open. We're just talking about the shapechange spell. It's true that there's no rule against the GM letting a spell be designed to do that. Really, all of this is up to the GM, because there's no hard and fast rule in print. I'm just describing my argument to support my own GM ruling, but I'm not going to accuse those who differ of cheating (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) My feeling on creating a shapechange (extinct animal) spell would be that it violates one of the core rules of Shadowrun magic, that it can't accomplish time travel.

[HardSix]

...I ruled that the PC (or any other spellcaster) can't shapechange into any extinct animal because it isn't part of the "living Gaiasphere."

For those who have been spouting sillyness about the "Astral knowing" has no basis or support in the shadowrun rules, if you would like to houserule that in your games that's fine.

To further clarify, I never meant that the Astral Plane or any entities in it would prohibit Shapechanging into extinct natural forms. I always assumed that all the life on Earth is what generates Mana. If a natural animal species is now extinct, or nearly so, then its signature/echo is no longer present in the Mana; Shapechange can't "find" the signature/echo anymore, so it no longer works.

I never said I was right, just voicing my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[possible GM responses that don't violate canon]:[list][*]Sorry, the velociraptor didn't really exist. Nothing existed before the First Age, which was only a couple million years ago. Those bones the palientologists dug up were placed there by a capricious free spirit in an attempt to discredit Christianity.

It would be real interesting (and challenging) to RP a short-Earther Christian mage character, trying to wrap their brain around the Awakened world and how it limit some of their abilities.

I would chose something that doesn't stand out that much. Just think how the Star and KE would react seeing a dinosaur running around downtown (and that's if it is just running, if it starts eating peoples...)

If a 'Runner is stomping through downtown as a T-Rex, they are just asking for trouble. Like maybe the Star's heretofore-unknown elite troll-archer squad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Back to thread topic... there was a recent documentary episode on PBS (in the US) where scientists discovered preserved non-fossilized tissue intact hidden within the surrounding fossilized marrow of dino bones. They were certain that some DNA was damaged, but... if you collected enough samples and had access to 2071 cloning technology, dinos would seem to be very likey to pop up in a corp lab.

[Stahlseele]

Hence: Shadowrun - Dinoriders!
or Jurassic Park
Or Caddilacs and Dinosaurs . . would be kinda hard to get a caddi though . .

[Blade]

I'd allow T-Rex Shapechange spell, but only if they meet the Body requirement and if they use their T-Rex shape to stomp on houses and women while talking excitedly about any kind of topic.

[Stahlseele]

if we are to assume a body of 20 for an T-Rex, no way in hell to accomplish that . . even a Troll would be hard pressed to fill out that skin and step into those shoes . .
and i pity the foo . . erm, the mage who tries to cast that spell . . but still, i find the idea of cybernetically augmented dinosaurs somehow entertaining ^^

[darthmord]

It's magic. It doesn't have to make rational sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Magic knows the difference between natural and man-made, even if they're made out of the exact same stuff, because it's magical and can do whatever it wants.

Except Magic isn't sentient. So "It" can't decide / determine anything.

Magic *IS* however defined by belief.

Beware the mage whose imaginary box is bigger than yours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[MJBurrage]

actually, i'm pretty sure modern science can tell the difference between natural and man-made diamonds. a quick wikipedia search on man-made diamonds turned up an article that indicated there was a distinct difference in the past, at least, but did not indicate whether that still holds true.

Actually the current methods of producing man-made diamonds can produce gemstones that are indistinguishable from mined diamonds. Because of this some of the mine operators are considering using lasers to put serial numbers on their "natural" diamonds. They also oppose diamond manufacturers from using the term "cultured diamonds".

Just like pearls, man-made diamonds can be made that are higher quality than those found in nature, and at lower cost. Eventually one will just assume that a diamond over a certain quality is man-made, but you cannot tell for sure.

Of course in the Shadowrun world, the man-made diamond should be different astrally from a diamond found in nature.