Chapeshange - Extinct Animals?, T-Rex? Options

[Larme]

Except Magic isn't sentient. So "It" can't decide / determine anything.

Look, I've explained twice that I wasn't literally talking about a sentient magic. I was just using that terminology to explain myself more clearly. You obviously missed those posts, but if you want to understand what I'm trying to say, instead of misconstruing me, just scroll back up a bit. If you don't care, and you just want to jump on me for not being clear, join the club (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[MaxMahem]

Except Magic isn't sentient. So "It" can't decide / determine anything.

Magic may not be sentient, but the rules it operates under may be different than the ones that the rest of reality operate under. One the 'rules' of magic may be that you can't turn into an extinct creature. The reasons for this don't have to rationally make sense to us, it is magic after all.

[Ragewind]

Magic may not be sentient, but the rules it operates under may be different than the ones that the rest of reality operate under. One the 'rules' of magic may be that you can't turn into an extinct creature. The reasons for this don't have to rationally make sense to us, it is magic after all.

That's called GM magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Chrysalis]

Except Magic isn't sentient. So "It" can't decide / determine anything.

Magic *IS* however defined by belief.

Beware the mage whose imaginary box is bigger than yours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

So if my characters believes that chocobos exist he/she/it can transform into them? Cool.

[The Jopp]

So if my characters believes that chocobos exist he/she/it can transform into them? Cool.

Nope.

A Chokoboo is a FANTASY animal, not even paranormal OR natural.

I would have no problem with allowing extinct natural animals since they can easily be covered by existing rules with minor tweaks.

A T-Rex can be (roughly) compared to an Elephant in stats but with more teeth.

What I would like to see is a more extensive list of natural animal stats to compare with.

Another comparison is that a Blue Whale is perhaps not extinct but just as difficult because we are talking about a MASSIVE animal and that is the only problem with chapeshange.

[Apathy]

Fortunately, the shapechange spell is pretty self-limiting because of the body restriction. a T-Rex body is probably high enough that nobody can change into it anyway. Even a 10 foot troll is not going to be able to turn into a 20 foot Tyranasaurus. More likely for people to turn into something like Megaraptors or such. But since we're defining the stats on these now-extinct species its easy (and reasonable) to ensure that they don't have unbalanced stats. I'd probably give the Megaraptor stats similar to a lion, and basically it's just a flavor difference for the castor.

I still don't like the idea of shapechanging into something I that I've never seen and don't know what I'll look like, but "meh".

[Wesley Street]

I like this assertion that magic can, um, magically turn a person into any animal no matter what. Using that line of logic I could pick a random animal, even if I have no idea what it is, and turn into it. "Today, I shall be... *thumb through a dictionary* a zebu! That sounds keen!" Not at all silly.

Yes, there are no RAW to support limitations other than body size and that the critter in question must be non-paranormal. But approaching magic as a kind of New Age super-science like the actual Shadowrun fluff does wouldn't be uncalled for.

[Chrysalis]

Nope.

A Chokoboo is a FANTASY animal, not even paranormal OR natural.

Prove it.

[Arcblood]

Also who says the raptors and such are not awakened creatures. Jurrasic park is a cool concept and I have used that idea in a couple of runs. especially human/animal hybrid experiments. Human rino's are sick especially when its only the decker and noncombat mage facing it. See the x-files episode when they track down the human/leach hybrid in the sewers.
I limit the animal form spells only in that your target looses all clothing and armor. A player learned the hard way when he went berzerk as a grissly and had to walk through a security check naked.

[Fortune]

What about a Bunyip?

[Neraph]

Magic may not be sentient, but the rules it operates under may be different than the ones that the rest of reality operate under. One the 'rules' of magic may be that you can't turn into an extinct creature. The reasons for this don't have to rationally make sense to us, it is magic after all.

Can you quote us a page?

That aside, everyone here should read an amazing book series called The Belgariad. In it, a child gets to learn about the power he has at his disposal, and among one of the abilities is the power to shapeshift into anything. He's trying to change into an eagle for a long journey, and his aunt and grandpa (way over simplified, but yeah) have to teach him how to change into an eagle. "The wings aren't the right shape," "the feathers are too soft," "You forgot the tailfeathers..."

Just say that they either need training in the form, they need to assense the animal, or they need to learn the spell (via [Critter] Form) from a spell formula.

[Larme]

Just say that they either need training in the form, they need to assense the animal, or they need to learn the spell (via [Critter] Form) from a spell formula.

I hate David Eddings, but his stories are so goddamn absorbing, you can't stop reading them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

I don't think anyone's arguing about whether a house rule would be appropriate here. I think that an assensing type rule would help limit the spell, and make it more flavorful. I just think it's possible to justify disallowing shapechange into an extinct animal based on the text of the rule, is all. It seems imminently reasonable to say that "normal" animals include all animals currently living on earth, which are not paranormal animals. Normal being a word which denotes the usual, the regular (and yes, I have been using the word natural all along; I should have looked up the rules in the first place before launching my argument, but I blame all of you equally for not correcting me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). I know it's not the only way to read the word, but it's the one that makes the most sense IMO. I just can't imagine how adding dinosaurs to cyberpunk fantasy could possibly fail to be a bad thing, so that's the interpretation I'd use.

So, to perform the coup de grace on the horse: there are two possible interpretations. One is that "normal" means non-paranormal, as in any animal without paranormal powers, whether alive or millions of years dead. The other is that "normal" means more than just non-paranormal, it also means regular, usual, natural, etc. In other words, only natural animals living on the earth today. Either way you do it is fine.

The horse is dead! Long live the horse! Requiem in terra pax, amen.