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> 2070... can you lve without a wireless connection?, Life without networks
Ogrebear
post Dec 5 2008, 02:54 PM
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Was trying to add some characterization to my 'lives in Redmond in an old library' Troll Mage and decided that he should be without any wireless connections; no PAN, no phone nowt. The other players where a bit 'huh' but I told them he simply dislikes being on-line (got Flaws in sensitive system).

Now this was fine in darkest Redmond as few places have a working hook up anyway... but we've just had to visit the other side of Touristville and things got a little mad when the semi-working devices the other had suddenly sprung into life and *stuff* started popping up on their screens/shades/etc.

Now my question is- if we have to stay in a connected area for a while will my character being offline be a problem in the ever connected world? Will he be more of a target if he comes up as offline?
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Malachi
post Dec 5 2008, 03:09 PM
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Lone Star and other security outfits may feel a bit nervous about you because your SIN cannot be verified. Downtown Seattle is a definite no-no as that area expects all people to be broadcasting their ID from the Commlinks. The team not having a way to call you could also pose difficulties in team communication. I would suggest your character get a Commlink, but with no accessories. So you don't go VR and you don't use AR, which is still pretty unusual in 2070, but at least the team will be able to get ahold of you when the don't know where you are, and security companies won't freak out because you have no identity.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 5 2008, 03:22 PM
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I would think that since a NEW Meta Link commlink and a new copy of Vector Xim costs only 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) then your troll should at least have that. Hell you might even ask your GM if he can get a Meta Link with the 2070 version of Linux. Sure you can't get the full matrix experience*, but with your troll.... he DOESN'T want to!

I know with my Chaos Mage, he's almost the exact opposite from your troll mage. He has a soft maxed (Response 5 / Signal 5) commlink and running Firewall 6, Encrypt 6 (both optimized and ergonomic), & Iris Anti-Virus (ergonomic) constantly. I also clustered all my other 'ware so I have a Response 4 (all my ware is Alpha Ware) sub node that I run Rating 6 Lie Detection and Empathy (both optimized to run on the node) on constantly.

----------------------------------------------

* = Unwired says that the Open Source community can't get the matrix specifications because of the corps... to which I throw the bullshit flag. Software and specifications can be cracked if there is enough people who want it cracked. Take a look at WINE HQ and see what some Linux hackers have done.
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DireRadiant
post Dec 5 2008, 04:33 PM
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You may wish to refer to the sidebar on p. 210 SR4. Example #3
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Malachi
post Dec 5 2008, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 5 2008, 11:22 AM) *
...Meta Link with the 2070 version of Linux...

What do you think Red Cap(Hat) (Li)Nix is? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Aaron
post Dec 5 2008, 04:41 PM
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Isn't there something in Runner's Companion about staying off the grid? Like on or around p. 22?
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TheOOB
post Dec 5 2008, 06:31 PM
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For the record, if you really don't want a commlink, you can always just have an RFID tag projecting your SIN, though then you would have trouble doing things like buying stuff at stores. Most places in downtown wouldn't accept certified cred.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 5 2008, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 5 2008, 11:33 AM) *
What do you think Red Cap(Hat) (Li)Nix is? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Except the system rating sucks and the firewall is a joke. You would think a 2070 version of Linux would be a little better...
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Dr Funfrock
post Dec 5 2008, 09:16 PM
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Hmmm...

This is a question that keeps coming up, and I keep wondering if people have actually stopped to think about how they live their own lives.

First off, yes, there are basic setting concerns. You need your SIN to be readable... but the RFID tag not a bad suggestion there from TheOOB. I can't see why it wouldn't work, and it would actually make sense for people too poor to even keep a Meta Link (way below poverty line kind of thing).

After that, we're looking at plain old practicality.
Could you, today, give up the following?:
Your portable music player (consider that most of your music probably won't play without a net connection in 2070, thanks to invasive DRM. It's already happening with games platforms like Steam, and with a lot of online music services)
Your cell phone
Your laptop computer
Your wireless internet
Your credit and debit cards

That's pretty hefty. I know I'd be completely screwed without the wireless connection on my laptop. People ask why you can't just use cables, but let's be honest here, even today cables suck, big time. Being able to sit down and work, anywhere, with net access is amazing.
Just being able to open a Google window and look up anything at the click of a button, no matter where I'm working, completely changes how I work.
What about giving up your cell phone? How much do you take for granted the idea that people can contact you anywhere, and that you can contact other people from anywhere. How often do you just assume that you'll be able to call a taxi? Or that if you can't find a place you can call up and ask for directions? When you go out shopping with a friend do you ever agree to meet up later, and simply hand-wave the details with "I'll call you"? This is a technology that our whole society is basically dependant on.
And finally you're talking about walking around with an easy means of paying for your stuff. Even if a place does accept certified cred, that's the equivalent of walking around with nothing but cash in your pocket. How much do you risk taking with you? Are you going to have to drive to the bank as soon as you need to pay for something big? I'd also expect that, in something of a reversal, certified cred would only be valid for large purchases. More like writing a check than offering cash. Small "dollars and dimes" stuff, everyone would expect to just deduct from your account automatically, so you'll have a hard time paying for your drinks in a bar or a meal at a cafe, because the staff just don't want to have to mess around with physical exchange. I'd certainly be willing to bet you couldn't get on a bus, given that here in Toronto the drivers don't handle change themselves (you just chuck the money in the box). The 2070 equivalent would be your fare being automatically deducted when you get on the bus.
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Fortune
post Dec 5 2008, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 6 2008, 08:15 AM) *
You would think a 2070 version of Linux would be a little better...


Why?
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streetangelj
post Dec 6 2008, 04:48 PM
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I live fine without anything on that list, besides my debit card (which I only recently was given by my bank due to previous checking account screw-ups) beause so few places will actually take a check these days. Although I admit I'd probably want a cellphone if I travelled more, and my wife's laptop is a bit more convenient than working on the desktop (at least I can have a more comfortable chair) but overall I'm preferring the desktop (better sound system, trackball over touchpad). As far as wireless internet goes the destop didn't come with any and I don't even own a portable music player.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 6 2008, 04:58 PM
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around my part of the world mobile phones are the personal line directly to people.

as in, if you call or sms that number you know you will reach that specific person, unlike calling some house number and having to ask.

i know at least one person that hates calling house numbers because he is not sure who will answer...

and i dont recall the last time someone i know used a check to pay rather then a debit card. the banks even have mobile phone based card readers that delivery people or temporary arrangements like concerts use.

and i agree that a rfid tag with sin and account info (for those payments) is probably a nice workaround.

just make sure to have a signal blocking pouch to slip it into when you dont want to be registered somewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Chrysalis
post Dec 6 2008, 06:43 PM
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There about 5 public payphones in Finland anymore and two of those are located in the Helsinki-Vantaa airport. Finland has 7 million mobile phones. the population is 5.1 million.

Here in Finland you pay for almost everything by card. Cheques haven't been used in Finland for over 20 years now and can only be cashed in banks. All of our banking happens over the Internet. Bill paying machines are being phased out of use.

The city of Oulu has PANOulu which is a wireless connection which works anywhere in the city centre, university campus, and in most public institutions. It is also an open wireless connection which is free. It has been running since 2001.

While you can get a phonebook and most people still use it as their primary source of information, many of the services provided are all online, including registration to public institutions (like doctor's appointments).

Also most companies have embraced online retail which uses bank certification systems for identification and bill payment. It has been estimated that in 2007 20% of Finland's internal retail sales were conducted online.
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Namelessjoe
post Dec 6 2008, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Dec 6 2008, 11:43 AM) *
There about 5 public payphones in Finland anymore and two of those are located in the Helsinki-Vantaa airport. Finland has 7 million mobile phones. the population is 5.1 million.

Here in Finland you pay for almost everything by card. Cheques haven't been used in Finland for over 20 years now and can only be cashed in banks. All of our banking happens over the Internet. Bill paying machines are being phased out of use.

The city of Oulu has PANOulu which is a wireless connection which works anywhere in the city centre, university campus, and in most public institutions. It is also an open wireless connection which is free. It has been running since 2001.

While you can get a phonebook and most people still use it as their primary source of information, many of the services provided are all online, including registration to public institutions (like doctor's appointments).

Also most companies have embraced online retail which uses bank certification systems for identification and bill payment. It has been estimated that in 2007 20% of Finland's internal retail sales were conducted online.


this little bit of trivia is neat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) around here in Montana we are just now having places not reciveing checks or cash(although i think not accepting cash is iffy) for payment mostly there coffee huts or restaurants....
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KCKitsune
post Dec 6 2008, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 5 2008, 04:24 PM) *
Why?


Because the people who program Linux do it for fun and since there are so many people who code for Linux they can catch each others mistakes. It's the opposite thing with Windows. Windows "sucks"* because it's a closed sourced OS and they can use any horrible work around that they want to.

Now fast forward this to 2070 and the Matrix. Collaboration instead of taking days or weeks can happen in hours. Feedback time reduction accelerates code development speed and therefore makes any OS with vast community support (like Linux) improve faster.

------------------------------------------------------------------

* = Windows is great for what it does, it just has the security of a retard. This has been improved in Vista, but compared to Linux, or worse yet OpenBSD, it is still lagging behind.
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2008, 09:55 PM
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I just don't really think that the state of today's Linux community (healthy as it may be) would automatically have all that much relevance or bearing on the way things are 60 years in the future, past two complete crashes and the total redesigning of the internet/matrix ... twice.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 7 2008, 01:03 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 6 2008, 04:55 PM) *
I just don't really think that the state of today's Linux community (healthy as it may be) would automatically have all that much relevance or bearing on the way things are 60 years in the future, past two complete crashes and the total redesigning of the internet/matrix ... twice.


I did say in my original post about the 2070 version of Linux. I should have said "Linux (or its successor)". I believe that with Hackers the way that they are, they would have their version of Open Source Software. I also would see them making an OS just because they could.
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Hagga
post Dec 7 2008, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Dec 5 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Hmmm...

This is a question that keeps coming up, and I keep wondering if people have actually stopped to think about how they live their own lives.

First off, yes, there are basic setting concerns. You need your SIN to be readable... but the RFID tag not a bad suggestion there from TheOOB. I can't see why it wouldn't work, and it would actually make sense for people too poor to even keep a Meta Link (way below poverty line kind of thing).

After that, we're looking at plain old practicality.
Could you, today, give up the following?:
Your portable music player (consider that most of your music probably won't play without a net connection in 2070, thanks to invasive DRM. It's already happening with games platforms like Steam, and with a lot of online music services)
Your cell phone
Your laptop computer
Your wireless internet
Your credit and debit cards

That's pretty hefty. I know I'd be completely screwed without the wireless connection on my laptop. People ask why you can't just use cables, but let's be honest here, even today cables suck, big time. Being able to sit down and work, anywhere, with net access is amazing.
Just being able to open a Google window and look up anything at the click of a button, no matter where I'm working, completely changes how I work.
What about giving up your cell phone? How much do you take for granted the idea that people can contact you anywhere, and that you can contact other people from anywhere. How often do you just assume that you'll be able to call a taxi? Or that if you can't find a place you can call up and ask for directions? When you go out shopping with a friend do you ever agree to meet up later, and simply hand-wave the details with "I'll call you"? This is a technology that our whole society is basically dependant on.
And finally you're talking about walking around with an easy means of paying for your stuff. Even if a place does accept certified cred, that's the equivalent of walking around with nothing but cash in your pocket. How much do you risk taking with you? Are you going to have to drive to the bank as soon as you need to pay for something big? I'd also expect that, in something of a reversal, certified cred would only be valid for large purchases. More like writing a check than offering cash. Small "dollars and dimes" stuff, everyone would expect to just deduct from your account automatically, so you'll have a hard time paying for your drinks in a bar or a meal at a cafe, because the staff just don't want to have to mess around with physical exchange. I'd certainly be willing to bet you couldn't get on a bus, given that here in Toronto the drivers don't handle change themselves (you just chuck the money in the box). The 2070 equivalent would be your fare being automatically deducted when you get on the bus.

Actually, I stopped carrying cash for eftpos instead about a year ago, but I could go back to it. Other than that, yeah. My phone is typically at home, I don't own a laptop and I run wherever I can possibly get to.

That's probably because Aus is one hell of a lot less wired than America, though.
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Blacken
post Dec 7 2008, 03:07 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 6 2008, 02:04 PM) *
Because the people who program Linux do it for fun and since there are so many people who code for Linux they can catch each others mistakes. It's the opposite thing with Windows. Windows "sucks"* because it's a closed sourced OS and they can use any horrible work around that they want to.
Incorrect. Windows "sucks" because the defaults are made for ease of use over security. The *nix root/peon architecture is not inherently better and is arguably considerably worse than a graduated security model, hence SELinux and the rest. VAC is a marvelous system that was poorly implemented on the user end of things (because they chose, as a design decision, to make it "annoying" under the assumption that the programmers of user software would start doing things the Right Way in order to minimize the VAC prompts that annoy their users).

QUOTE
* = Windows is great for what it does, it just has the security of a retard. This has been improved in Vista, but compared to Linux, or worse yet OpenBSD, it is still lagging behind.
Its defaults are less secure than a *nix system; compromises must be made for system usability. I can lock down a Windows box just as tightly as any *nix one; on the server side of things their defaults are actually quite reasonable--you don't find many compromised Windows Server 2003/2008 boxes out there. The security holes in modern NT versions of Windows are largely in the Windows equivalent of userland rather than the kernel, and the security bugs that are in kernel land are relatively obscure and in most cases not remote-accessible exploits.

Not terribly important to the topic at hand, but a common misconception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Fortune
post Dec 7 2008, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 7 2008, 12:03 PM) *
I should have said "Linux (or its successor)".


Funnily enough, I would have had no problem whatsoever with that statement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Malachi
post Dec 7 2008, 03:58 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 6 2008, 09:03 PM) *
I did say in my original post about the 2070 version of Linux. I should have said "Linux (or its successor)". I believe that with Hackers the way that they are, they would have their version of Open Source Software. I also would see them making an OS just because they could.

It has nothing to do with what is realistic, and everything to do with game mechanics. Having good programs available for free isn't a good game mechanic... thus SR "hand waves" away Free/Open Source. If you want to have rating 6 programs available for free, go ahead.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 7 2008, 04:05 AM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 6 2008, 10:58 PM) *
It has nothing to do with what is realistic, and everything to do with game mechanics. Having good programs available for free isn't a good game mechanic... thus SR "hand waves" away Free/Open Source. If you want to have rating 6 programs available for free, go ahead.


Nope I would go by the rule that Open Source Software (except System) can only get to Rating 4 for Free and they would degrade as if they were pirated software. I would say that System can get to Rating 6 but say that you have to pay for it. Call it a bribe, paying the hackers, or whatnot. The reason I would say that an Open Source System can get to 6 is because like Linux today, having your name and your code in the Linux Kernel is a lot more sexy than having your name and code in another version of Solitaire. More talent would be attracted to the Kernel than to other types of software.
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Malachi
post Dec 7 2008, 04:07 AM
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Well, there you go. Whatever works for you.
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MaxMahem
post Dec 7 2008, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 6 2008, 11:58 PM) *
It has nothing to do with what is realistic, and everything to do with game mechanics. Having good programs available for free isn't a good game mechanic... thus SR "hand waves" away Free/Open Source. If you want to have rating 6 programs available for free, go ahead.


I would also note that in conflicts stylisticly with the cyberpunk theme of Shadowrun. The powers that be (the Megacorps) have a large amount of control on the computer software world. It is, after all, a very profitable buisness to them. This gives them every incentive to take measures to stamp out movements such as the Open Source Movement which will have a measurable impact on their bottom line. Given the means and the ruthlessnes the coporations have been willing to resort to, being a modern day Linus or Stallman in the 6th world would be a very dangerous proposition indeed.

Now this does not mean that home grown software could not exists. But, its wide spread disemination is likely to pose a 'serious health risk' to its authors. Meaning its not likely to happen, at least, not for free.

--

All that said, if you want to include an OSS or FSF movement in your campaigns go ahead! I could imagine a variaty of interesting runs you could run for or against thes foundations if you liked. Maybe the movement still exists, it has just gone underground. Or you could have it be a major player in the 6th world. Fighting the good fight for open source in a closed source world! I imagine that KXCD guy could make some funny comics about this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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KCKitsune
post Dec 7 2008, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE (Blacken @ Dec 6 2008, 10:07 PM) *
...snip...

Not terribly important to the topic at hand, but a common misconception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I don't have any evidence to contradict you, so I will assume that Microsoft finally got it's act together and got Windows Server to actually be worth something.
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