IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Repercussions of allowing mundane countermagic?, What happens if I allow mundanes to use Banishing/Counterspelling?
HentaiZonga
post Dec 5 2008, 11:00 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Phoenix, AZ
Member No.: 15,884



So, our current group has been complaining rather vociferously that when a group of mundanes comes up against a mage, the mage pretty much gets to walk all over them.

We don't want to change that *completely*, but what do you think the results would be if mundanes had access to Banishing and Counterspelling (using Willpower as the stat, with some sort of substantial modifier)? There's all sorts of religious and subcultural rites to "ward off evil", and plenty of finctional precedence for "Van Helsing" types.

What should I watch out for?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hagga
post Dec 5 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 825
Joined: 21-October 08
Member No.: 16,538



Why not just give them the ability to cast spells, too? It'd really even the field if the entire party could toss off fireballs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Dec 5 2008, 11:07 PM
Post #3


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



if you gotta face a mage, get magic support. simple as that.
if you don't have magic support?
take out mage so he don't notice you.
can't cast at what he don't know is there.
there's canon ways to get mundanes up against magic, like arcane arrester and your own personal background count . .
if the whole party is mundane, nobody will complain either . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Dec 5 2008, 11:21 PM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



On the fluff side of things, the idea that it takes magic to fight magic (when magic won't go down to a stiletto between the shoulder blades) is pretty firmly ensconced in SR.

On the crunch side of things, allowing mundanes access to metamagic is pretty much a gimme to get out of being a magician. Granted they still have to invest Karma in it to be any good at it (watch out for when they ask for Counterspelling skillsofts), but it pretty much discourages players from ever being magicians.

If the PCs really are getting waltzed on by magicians left and right, your magicians are either way powerful or you should start to introduce some other counters - magicians that sell their counterspelling services, or spirits to do the same thing, magical compounds, quickened or sustained spells, etc.

I hate to be basic about it, but look at the standard fantasy trope of the prince turned into a frog. Now, granted in this case its just a troll turned into a really big frog with a quickened (Critter) Form spell, but your average fantasy hero only has two options: geek the mage that cast the spell or get another mage to undo it. Same rules apply in SR.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Dec 5 2008, 11:27 PM
Post #5


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



When my group of players come up with the guy with guns, they get wiped all over the floor. What if I give my players guns without them paying for them to even the field. I'll only give them a couple bullets. Would that make things even and ok?

Or maybe they can bring a gun to the gun fight.

Or maybe I don't send the players into a gun fight
Or there are ways to handle someone with a gun if your smart.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Beetle
post Dec 6 2008, 12:33 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 181
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Tallahassee, FL
Member No.: 15,883



You could let your players buy Spell/Spirit Knack for the low low price of 10 Karma and have each one specialize in the different areas of magic. Of course at that point they might as well buy latent awakening for the same 10 Karma and become a mage.
Your friendly neighborhood fixer could also find a mage for hire.

If mages are causing enough problem for your players to put in that crazy request you're either making your spell slingers too powerful, or the players lack a general sense of tactics. A combination of full auto, suppressive fire and a couple of HE grenades in the same round from multiple players will quickly eat up the dice pool and health of said mage.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HentaiZonga
post Dec 6 2008, 12:51 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Phoenix, AZ
Member No.: 15,884



The specific incident that caused this:

GM had a whole group of low-level mooks wandering about a forest at night. I used Infiltrate/Shadow to sneak about into LoS, then proceeded to use Control Actions to get the ones with heavy weapons to start opening fire on everyone else, one by one. After a minute or two of this, the whole group was in disarray, unable to coordinate any attack, and convinced that any of their "friends" would open fire on them at any moment. The few that DID have some sort of composure, I proceeded to Control into either shooting themselves or ejecting their clips and tossing them into the river.

The rest of the group felt reasonably superfluous at that point, and the GM was... pissed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cabral
post Dec 6 2008, 01:30 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 733
Joined: 30-August 05
Member No.: 7,646



In the old school TSR Marvel RPG, the X-Men had training to resist mental attacks and had special minor powers to resist them.
Since everything I see in movies and read about in comics obviously translates perfectly into the Real World and Shadowrun, let's implement this in SR.
Step one, grab snacks and a find a comfy chair; this is going to take a while.
Step two, grab the BBB (The Shadowrun main rulebook for the mundanes) and lots of paper and few pencils.
Step three, turn to page 79.
Step four, read Magic Resistance.

Hey look! Left over snacks!
If you're feeling generous you can bump that up to shielding (page 190 SR4).
Also, check out the unique enchantments example of the Digital Grimoire if your group is having trouble with spirits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Dec 6 2008, 01:37 AM
Post #9


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



Or improve their Willpower Attribute.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlueMax
post Dec 6 2008, 01:52 AM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,336
Joined: 25-February 08
From: San Mateo CA
Member No.: 15,708



QUOTE (Ancient History @ Dec 5 2008, 03:21 PM) *
If the PCs really are getting waltzed on by magicians left and right, your magicians are either way powerful or you should start to introduce some other counters - magicians that sell their counterspelling services, or spirits to do the same thing, magical compounds, quickened or sustained spells, etc.


[Flashback]
Lets hire an NPC Decker, nobody wanted to play one.
[/Flashback]

Every group is going to have something they don't invest in. My group lacks a face, or anyone with decent social interaction.
The question for me is "If they don't want to play any magical characters, do they want magic involved?"

The statement that a mage rules over mundanes is entirely situational. While I will not contribute to the "hey, lets hijack a thread with our favorite game play from our group" posse, in the game as I have played it I will say that there are many combat situations where Mundanes(non magical but otherwise skilled and powered) have an advantage. These hold until the characters have earned two or three hundred karma and countless nuyen.

From the books and suggestions:
Consider Arcane Arrester, from Runner's Companion and a great plot as to how your characters come to such a altered state.
Magic Resistance, I guess if they don't have friendly magic; What do they care? Good call.
Improved Willpower only goes so far. Counterspelling dice are worth twice as much as Willpower to me, and the work with an improved willpower.

Now if the situation is one mage against 10 joe average mooks, mage wins. This is why magic is a rare gift and is so costly during character generation. Again, in the game as I have played it thus far.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Dec 6 2008, 02:00 AM
Post #11


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



Arcane Arrestor and Astral Hazing for mundanes. Force 6 Stunbolt? -4 background count, 1/2 Arcane Arrestor. Well lookee here, Force 1 Stunbolt.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MaxMahem
post Dec 6 2008, 02:01 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 393
Joined: 23-December 05
From: Texarkana, TX
Member No.: 8,097



Rather than giving mundanes access to counterspelling, I would suggest taking steps to weaken some of the power of magic. For example you could have all magic spells drain be Force+x instead of (Force/2)+x. Or you could change the way magic is resisted instead of with just will power you could have them roll willpower+essence to resist. Or you could let the targets of direct combat spells get to resist with the damage with their body (in addition to their traditional reistance test).

Just some ideas. You could use them in isolation or in combination.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Dec 6 2008, 02:34 AM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



It's my opinion that the mind control spells are overpowered. We agreed to completely ban them when we realized that it wouldn't be any fun when the NPC mage has us all shoot ourselves in the head.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Heath Robinson
post Dec 6 2008, 02:54 AM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,263
Joined: 4-March 08
From: Blighty
Member No.: 15,736



Give wared out characters Object Resistance? When you've got more computer hardware in your body than a Jumbo Jet I don't see why it ought to be that you still get affect like every other sack of meat. I mean, when it's outside of your body it's got an OR of 2 or 3, but somehow it loses that when you put it inside you. What the hell?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Malachi
post Dec 6 2008, 02:55 AM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,228
Joined: 24-July 07
From: Canada
Member No.: 12,350



QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Dec 5 2008, 08:51 PM) *
The specific incident that caused this:

GM had a whole group of low-level mooks wandering about a forest at night. I used Infiltrate/Shadow to sneak about into LoS, then proceeded to use Control Actions to get the ones with heavy weapons to start opening fire on everyone else, one by one. After a minute or two of this, the whole group was in disarray, unable to coordinate any attack, and convinced that any of their "friends" would open fire on them at any moment. The few that DID have some sort of composure, I proceeded to Control into either shooting themselves or ejecting their clips and tossing them into the river.

The rest of the group felt reasonably superfluous at that point, and the GM was... pissed.

For you to have that much success, I think your GM must not have been playing things right. Remember to read the "header" section under that category of spell.
QUOTE (BBB pg.202)
Mental Manipulations: For Mental Manipulation
spells, the caster makes an Opposed Magic + Spellcasting
Test against the target’s Willpower (+ Counterspelling, if
available). If the caster scores more hits, she controls the target
as noted in the spell description.
Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a
Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim
rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces
the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If
the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer
affects the target.

You mentioned that you were controlling actions for "a minute or two." In 2 minutes, if the spell was at force 6, each person affected should have gotten 6.66 resist rolls with their Willpower to reduce the hits you got on the Spellcasting test. Second, Control Actions does only that: actions, and in between when you are issued direct commands (of which you can only issue 2 per round) they are able to act normally. So it would be pretty simple for them to say "I don't know what I'm doing, please stop me!" Also, most mundanes that have any sort of security training know the basics of magic. They know it depends on Line of Sight, so the first thing they should do is find some cover (all visibility modifiers, including cover, apply to Spellcasting Tests). Second, they're going to be looking as hard as they possibly can for that Mage that can see them somewhere, and if they spot them, they're going to open up with everything they've got.

However, in general: yes, Mages own mundanes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post Dec 6 2008, 03:01 AM
Post #16


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



Remember that everyone can tell where the mage is when he casts a spell if they pass that threshold 3 test.

The reason why you are winning is that the bad guys are using dumb tactics.

Simple tactics to improve the performance of the guards

A) every security guard is going to have thermal smoke grenades taped to their armour.

So whats going to happen is when the mage casts the first mind control spell, someone notices the mage casting the spell and shouts 'mage!' into the units tactical communications system, which pops everyone's thermal smoke giving the mage a 6 point dice pool penalty.


B) Then everyone is going to have their AR enhanced tactical net locate the mage for them, even if they didn't spot the mage.

Then everyone is going to fan out and lay down suppressing fire (which doesn't require a roll) on the location where the mage is.

C) Everyone is also going to know that mages can only cast spells with line of sight, so all soldiers will be drilled on the urgent need to break line of sight to the mage and use indirect fire mechanisms. Soldiers will typically have underslung grenade launchers and use those to 'lob' grenades out of cover with AR assisted targetting. (its a -6 dp penalty due to blind fire +3 due to AR assists), that will render them immune to magical targetting.

D) MG equipped soldiers will be instructed in WWII era tactics for using MGs in indirect fire roles, and will use that to conduct surpressive fire will breaking LOS. Again, as this doesn't even require a roll, they are going to be doing awesome.

E) Drones will be much more heavily used. Any mage can expect to be swarmed by the hunter killer drones that are explosive grenades as soona s he exposes him. Also, UAV platforms armed with rocket launchers and with magnified optics will be dispatched to support any mooks that have a serious support organisation behind them.

Drones have OR 4+, so your mage may not be able to effect them.

F) As mooks will either be gangers (who won;t have support) or drug dealers or corporate forces (who will have full blown military support on call) if you don't rapidly eliminate a group like this they are going to be calling back to base and you are going to get fucked up by a torrent of explosions.

So after IP one the mage is going to be unable to see and covered in bullets, and the bad guys are going to be running like hell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post Dec 6 2008, 03:11 AM
Post #17


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



Thermal smoke on armor is just stupid. All it does is blind and suffocate the guards, in addition to blinding the magician. What they do is scream Gort! Klattu brada nikto, which brings the Force 12 bound spirit paroling the area running at flying astral speed to their location for support.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post Dec 6 2008, 03:14 AM
Post #18


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



Force 12 bound spirit is quite expensive and a valuable asset (the mage), may die while summoning and binding it.

However, you make a valid point - as astrally projecting mages can move at over a 1,000 kilometers an hour, and mages and spirits can be reasonably expected to move into a supporting position.

I assume any guards would be wearing a gas mask and flash hood, respirator or similar devices because smoke and flash bangs are obviously, intergral to operations.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HentaiZonga
post Dec 6 2008, 03:38 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 14-April 08
From: Phoenix, AZ
Member No.: 15,884



QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 5 2008, 07:55 PM) *
For you to have that much success, I think your GM must not have been playing things right. Remember to read the "header" section under that category of spell.

You mentioned that you were controlling actions for "a minute or two." In 2 minutes, if the spell was at force 6, each person affected should have gotten 6.66 resist rolls with their Willpower to reduce the hits you got on the Spellcasting test. Second, Control Actions does only that: actions, and in between when you are issued direct commands (of which you can only issue 2 per round) they are able to act normally. So it would be pretty simple for them to say "I don't know what I'm doing, please stop me!" Also, most mundanes that have any sort of security training know the basics of magic. They know it depends on Line of Sight, so the first thing they should do is find some cover (all visibility modifiers, including cover, apply to Spellcasting Tests). Second, they're going to be looking as hard as they possibly can for that Mage that can see them somewhere, and if they spot them, they're going to open up with everything they've got.

However, in general: yes, Mages own mundanes.


Well, these were a bunch of drug-runners... everyone in the group had a Willpower between 2 and 4. And I never controlled any individual person for more than 2 turns - just grab ahold of one of them, shoot up their buddies for a turn or two, then let go and grab ahold of someone else to shoot them. Of course they started shouting at each other that they didn't know what the fuck they were doing / what was going on, but by then everyone was in total chaos and I had done my job.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post Dec 6 2008, 04:09 AM
Post #20


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



Yeah, thats poor tactics, your GM is just giving you a free ride. Remember, in the future with the breakdown of law and order, drug runners are going to look more like para military forces than they do today, given the increased access to resources.

I'll cite some other paramilitary forces for you:

The US Special Activities Division of the CIA

The KGB

SWAT Teams

The Carabinieri

Blackwater, the mercenaries operating in iraq (the closest comparison, as the annual value of the drug trade is about 400 billion dollars annually, so you could easily have these guys and similar organisations operating in support)

Greystone

They are going to access to serious equipment and not run around like retards when under attack by magic. They are not going to give you two turns to respond - second turn you are going to have automatic grenade launchers firing at you. They will have encountered mind control spells before, and know what to do - seperate out and blow smoke so you cannot see each other, turn off the friends component of the IFF functions of their tactical networks so you don't know where your friends are, but leave the hostile's component on so you can mess up the mages day.

Secondly, what, you mean they didn't know they were under attack from mind control?

QUOTE
And I never controlled any individual person for more than 2 turns - just grab ahold of one of them, shoot up their buddies for a turn or two, then let go and grab ahold of someone else to shoot them. Of course they started shouting at each other that they didn't know what the fuck they were doing / what was going on, but by then everyone was in total chaos and I had done my job.


Everyone is going to know about mind control. They will have been mind controlled before, potentially as part of a training exercise. Most of them will be ex-military (you can see this trend today in russia where ex-russian special forces are heavily involved in the drug business), where they will have had formal training similar to what is done today to expose recruits to chemical weapons such as tear gas.

They made no attempt to use easy 1-2-3 tactics that everyone should know to deal with mages. Of course they got raped. GM free ride. He needs to harden up and use tactics. Drug runners are not going to be idiots, they are going to be hardened individuals with special forces training.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CoyoteNZ
post Dec 6 2008, 11:24 AM
Post #21


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 71
Joined: 23-September 08
From: Dunedin, New Zealand
Member No.: 16,370



Personally I believe if characters (PC or NPC) want to have magical abilities such as counter and banish, then they should cough up the karma and buy it just like the Mage did.

As for the scenario,

QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Dec 6 2008, 01:51 PM) *
GM had a whole group of low-level mooks wandering about a forest at night. I used Infiltrate/Shadow to sneak about into LoS, then proceeded to use Control Actions to get the ones with heavy weapons to start opening fire on everyone else, one by one.


The mage must be very talented to be good at magic, and also to be good at Infiltrate and Shadow, because his skill was good enough to hide from all the bad guys, and cast spells.

As soon as their was gun fire, every body would be trying to surround the location, and one slip up and his location would have been discovered.

Really its not a matter of magic in this case, because if he was good enough to get line of sight on them without being spotted, he could have just as easy put holes in their heads with a slienced rifle or sniper rifle, or fired drug darts to make them lose their mind and start acting in the random ways they were.

This is more a matter that the characters stealth skills just outclassed the opposition by a long way, and all it would have taken was one unlucky role on his behalf, or one lucky role on the mooks side (use edge), and the mage is now in the middle of a fire fight. bet he would have liked his buddies for backup then, but naturally his buddies were nowhere near to assist him, otherwise your entie party has a hell of a stealth group.

As for the Mage vs the Grunt, there are other solutions on this thread, such as grenades, drones, suppression fire, cover (a real pain for spell casters), or just blind panic and suppressin fire in any direction of any random movement they can't identify.

Leave the magical defense to the mages.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AllTheNothing
post Dec 6 2008, 03:10 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 997
Joined: 20-October 08
Member No.: 16,537



QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Dec 6 2008, 05:09 AM) *
The Carabinieri



The only Carabinieri I'm aware of ar the italian an they are a full blown military, part of the italian armed forces along the army, the navy and the air force. They haven't always been though, for a certain time they had an ambigue position as a paramilitary police force (I think people wanted no military force to amminister justice) than they were reconized as military (wich they effectively have always been).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dragnar
post Dec 6 2008, 03:19 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 386
Joined: 28-November 08
From: Germany
Member No.: 16,638



Not to mention in the specific incident (a mage superior in skill against a few mooks with no usefull skills, training or equipment) any drone rigger, ruthenium clad sniper or decked out sammy could have done the same thing, so it isn't even a mage problem.
In SR skill, initiative, surprise and planning trump numbers most of the time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AllTheNothing
post Dec 6 2008, 03:26 PM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 997
Joined: 20-October 08
Member No.: 16,537



QUOTE (CoyoteNZ @ Dec 6 2008, 12:24 PM) *
Personally I believe if characters (PC or NPC) want to have magical abilities such as counter and banish, then they should cough up the karma and buy it just like the Mage did.

As for the scenario,



The mage must be very talented to be good at magic, and also to be good at Infiltrate and Shadow, because his skill was good enough to hide from all the bad guys, and cast spells.

As soon as their was gun fire, every body would be trying to surround the location, and one slip up and his location would have been discovered.

Really its not a matter of magic in this case, because if he was good enough to get line of sight on them without being spotted, he could have just as easy put holes in their heads with a slienced rifle or sniper rifle, or fired drug darts to make them lose their mind and start acting in the random ways they were.

This is more a matter that the characters stealth skills just outclassed the opposition by a long way, and all it would have taken was one unlucky role on his behalf, or one lucky role on the mooks side (use edge), and the mage is now in the middle of a fire fight. bet he would have liked his buddies for backup then, but naturally his buddies were nowhere near to assist him, otherwise your entie party has a hell of a stealth group.

As for the Mage vs the Grunt, there are other solutions on this thread, such as grenades, drones, suppression fire, cover (a real pain for spell casters), or just blind panic and suppressin fire in any direction of any random movement they can't identify.

Leave the magical defense to the mages.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ



I agreed leave counterspelling to mages; if you realy want magical defences just don an armor with anbended pots in wich growes haven lilly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dr Funfrock
post Dec 6 2008, 04:28 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 353
Joined: 2-February 08
Member No.: 15,618



QUOTE (Dragnar @ Dec 6 2008, 10:19 AM) *
Not to mention in the specific incident (a mage superior in skill against a few mooks with no usefull skills, training or equipment) any drone rigger, ruthenium clad sniper or decked out sammy could have done the same thing, so it isn't even a mage problem.
In SR skill, initiative, surprise and planning trump numbers most of the time.


This.


It gets said time and time again, but it still surprises so many players to discover that SR is a game of glass cannons.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 22nd September 2020 - 11:25 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.