Pimp my build, A thread where people can get community feedback on their characters Options

[Larme]

I wouldn't say that one beats the other. If there are no enemy mages around, magic usually wins. It's just that magic ceases to be a serious advantage when put up against equal magical opposition. Magic is like a trump card: if you have it and they don't, you win. But if both of you have it, then neither of you are trumped and it falls to good old fashioned mundanity.

The viability of a stealth oriented mage is highly dependent on your campaign setting. I assume though that since you're outfitted with DNA masking and fingerprint removal, you're not expecting to fight very many gangers, you're expecting people with the resources and expertise to do forensic analysis... The problem with your build is that it relies almost entirely on magic for stealth, and won't work when the enemy employs basic countermeasures. If you want to be a ghost, you need to start with high agility and high infiltration.

I don't think your character is bad per se, but I think that most mages are a lot more helpful if they have a somewhat broader focus. Invisibility, mask, influence, etc. are all highly useful spells. Just don't expect to be some kind of untraceable ghost who operates alone. Unless you've got a hacker to disable their ultrasound sensors, a rigger to get you away quickly, and a samurai to lay down covering fire if things go bad, you're just asking to get it. You shouldn't try to make a character who's a one-man kill machine because a) you aren't playing alone and b) it's not really possible for a mage to be like that. From experience, I can tell you that assassin characters get old quickly, because most jobs tend not to be assassinations, and you're often paired up with people who couldn't sneak their way out of a paper bag in the first place.

[Glyph]

With that in mind do you see any problems with the existing build or approach?

- J.

I think the biggest problem is having Combat Monster for a stealth build. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think his mundane skills should be more stealth-oriented rather than combat-oriented. Someone with a manabolt shouldn't usually need firearms. I think, overall, that you have spent a lot of resources in making him untraceable, at the expense of getting the job done and getting away in the first place. For a magical stealth build, you really need some mundane stealth and B&E to complement the magical side of it. Also, if I were the GM, I would not let you pick your own "mysterious cyberware" - that kind of defeats the first word, right there. Also, it's kind of a cheesy way to get something you want for your character, and get points for it.

[Tyro]

Looking at your Attributes:

3 Body - 15 Karma
3 Agility - 9 Karma
2 Reaction - 6 Karma
2 Strength - 6 Karma
6 Charisma - 45 Karma
5 Intuition - 42 Karma
3 Logic - 15 Karma

No Willpower Attribute listed, but the above add up to 138 points, so even if your Willpower was 6, you wouldn't be spending 225 Karma on your core Attributes. And that's assuming you add the racial mods before buying them - if you add them afterwards, then your Agility would only cost 6 points, and your Charisma would only cost 27 points.

I'm using the Upgraded Character Generator as released by DamienKnight, version beta 7b. I didn't do the math by hand; it looks like I should have. I messed up and listed the paid-for points (pre-race) for Charisma (her total natural Charisma is 8) and the post-race value for Agility. Willpower is 5. I've edited the post to reflect all of this.

When you pay for your race, are you saying okay now my charisma is 3, and then buying 3 points of charisma and ending with charisma 6 or are you buying three points of charisma, paying for your race, and ending with charisma 6

One route costs much less than the other route.

The former; I believe that route is both RAW and RAI. I know I've slapped a lot of restrictions on my character; I paid for my race, I'm using some restrictive interpretations of the rules, and I'm only using 600 BP. The way I see it is, it's a lot more fun to play a character with room to grow. The opposition can always become more powerful, but there's a pretty firm ceiling for runners. I'd rather have a bit of time before I hit that ceiling.

[ElFenrir]

But if you want to be a badass mage to start out, your meat skills are crappy more or less by necessity.

I have to disagree here. Even with 600 Karma(we usually play with 750, and it goes doubly so there), I can make a mage with good meat-skills as well as being badass in the spellcasting. Now, they won't be badass at say, Enchanting and Arcana on top of all of this, but you can easily build a solid, say, combat mage from this.

[Larme]

I have to disagree here. Even with 600 Karma(we usually play with 750, and it goes doubly so there), I can make a mage with good meat-skills as well as being badass in the spellcasting. Now, they won't be badass at say, Enchanting and Arcana on top of all of this, but you can easily build a solid, say, combat mage from this.

Well, it's hard to discuss terms like "good" and "bad-ass," we might well have different definitions that we're going by... And I've never used karmagen, I'm talking about your basic 400BP character (though maybe that's the same as 600 karma, I dunno). But no matter how you slice it, it sucks up a lot of BP to be a magician who's likely to overwhelm enemy mages he meets instead of just stalemate them...

[ElFenrir]

Oh, it does suck up quite a bit. (600 Karma is roughly 400 BP, give or take. It's hard to get a solid grounding, though-as some 400 BP builds can go even higher than 750, while others can be less than 500. It can vary a whole lot-but it seems that 600k is about it.) A 600 Karma character tends to look a bit more powerful, I think, due to the larger number of moderate skills(like 3's, 3+2's, and the like), since it's the sweet-spot for cost-effective(where the scaling of BP makes it more effective to jam a bunch of high numbers in at the start where you want them.) They do tend to have more solid attributes(I would argue more pleasing as well, less 6/1 combos.)

Well, I guess ''badass'' is in terms of the general power level. If it's a 600 Karma game, you can make someone who is very solid in both areas. The build I played around with saw the fellow with all solid attributes, a 5 magic(was 6, gave a point of cyber/bio), 5's in both drain attributes, a 4 counterspelling and a 5 spellcasting; he also had enough nuyen left to get a focus of choice and some karma left to bond it, allowing more dice here. He also threw around 13 unarmed dice and 13 firearms dice too, 12 dice for Urban Infiltration, and has 8 spells of choice(one of which could be an Increased Reflex spell, for example.) I guess I consider that fairly badass. I even did this without Skillwires; if I decide to play switcheroo and add some of them to the mix, it would probably get even better-it would free up Karma for more Resources and foci, if you didn't mind walking the thin line of focus addiction.

[Tyro]

...if you didn't mind walking the thin line of focus addiction.

That reminds me - In the description for focus addiction (even mild), it mentions a penalty to Drain Tests. Does that apply to ALL drain tests, or only to drain tests while you're in withdrawal?

[Larme]

@ElFenrir: Can I see that sheet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) I expect an average samurai to have 12 dice in several things, and more than that in a specialty. But a mage, that's pretty surprising...

[ElFenrir]

Sure thing! Ok, Human Combat Mage Dude, No Skillwires Version. 600 Karma, 300 Karma available for Attributes. (Keep in mind, the Ork version of this is pretty scary.)

+ Qualities: 25 BP(50 Karma)

Magician
Martial Arts Lv. 2(+2 DV)

- Qualities: 35 BP(70 Karma of choice)

Attributes: 297

B: 4(+1 damage)
A: 5(7)
R: 4
S: 3(5)
C: 3
I: 4
L: 5
W: 5
E: 2
I: 8/1 [Improved with Reflexes if foci is purchased]
Ess: 5
Magic: 5

Resources: 33 Karma-82500
Contacts: 18 Karma
Knowledge/Language Skills: 36 Karma
Maneuvers(Martial Arts): 12 Karma(3 maneuvers)

4 Karma Remaining

Bioware:

Muscle Augmentation 2
Muscle Toner 2

Cyberware:

Plastic Bone Lacing(Alphaware)

Active Skills:

Spellcasting: 5
Counterspelling: 4
Etiquette(Magic): 2(+2)
Negotation(Bargain): 2(+2)
Unarmed Combat(Martial Arts): 4(+2)
Infiltration(Urban): 3(+2)
Assensing: 2
Astral Combat(Unarmed): 2(+2)
Gymnastics: 3
Pistols(Semi-Automatics): 2(+2)
Summoning: 2
Banishing or Binding: 2

Spells(40 Karma)

Manabolt
Stunball
Increase Reflexes
Heal
Physical Mask
Imp. Invisibility

2 more of choice

So, as you can see here, he has a fair amount of dice thrown. You could tweak him some-drop the Pistols for more Karma to Resources/Bonding costs, for example, or up his Conjuring stuff, which IS rather on the lower side-he's more of a spellcaster. Or just drop the Summoning and up his meat skills more.

The 2 Edge is the other thing that sort of suffers-but he could live long enough to increase that, hopefully. it's not perfect by far, but it's, IMO, a solid combat mage that can do quite a few things. He does throw 12 dice for Urban Infiltration, 7 for Gymnastics Dodge(and can wear decent armor), the Bone Lacing gives him a little better damage reduction and better unarmed damage(he hits for a pretty nice 6, 7 if you use the old Hardliner rules of adding +1 to the DV), if you take Kick Attack he can get +1 Reach die and throw 14 unarmed dice(he's 13 normally), and his Spellcasting is fairly solid; grabbing a foci shouldn't be hard with a few adjustments(dropping Pistols again, for example).

The Ork or Dwarf with Skillwires is even more silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JonathanC]

So here's a rough sketch of something I was working on last night. A technomancer...as always, I kept running low on points. I always run low on points when I build characters by hand, and it's such a pain...but I'm trying to get better at building characters without leaning on excel sheets. The idea here is someone who was a shut-in due to health concerns (daylight is uncomfortable due to albinism, sheltered growing up due to being asthmatic). To compensate, they were constantly on the matrix, and were roughly the equivalent to your average MySpace person or WoW addict...they were logged in during the crash, and there you go. I skimped on agility because I realized that there was no way I was going to be able to make a TM worthwhile in combat, so why not be laughably clumsy and give the character some....you know, character? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Body 4
Agility 1
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 4
Intuition 5
Logic 3
Willpower 5
Edge 2
Essence 6
Resonance 6

Qualities:
Technomancer
Paragon: Flow
Poor Self Control: Braggart
Oblivious
Albinism
Asthma

Skills:
Tasking Group 4
Electronics Group 4
Cracking group 4
Etiquette (Matrix) 1(3)
Dodge (ranged) 1(3)
Throwing Weapons 2

Contact: Undefined, 3/2

Complex Forms:
Stealth 6
Spoof 4
Analyze 5
Exploit 5
Equipment
Low Lifestyle
Armor Jacket (non-conductive 1, shock frills)
3 flash bangs
1 High Explosive grenade
2 frag grenades
2 throwing knives
Medkit (rating 6)
2 Trauma patches
Biomonitor
Metalink
Goggles (vision enhancement 3, flare compensation, low-light vision)
Earbuds (Auditory enhancement 3, sound filter 3)
Honda Spirit
Bust a Move toy drone
GM Nissan Doberman

[JonathanC]

I'm using the Upgraded Character Generator as released by DamienKnight, version beta 7b. I didn't do the math by hand; it looks like I should have. I messed up and listed the paid-for points (pre-race) for Charisma (her total natural Charisma is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) and the post-race value for Agility. Willpower is 5. I've edited the post to reflect all of this.


The former; I believe that route is both RAW and RAI. I know I've slapped a lot of restrictions on my character; I paid for my race, I'm using some restrictive interpretations of the rules, and I'm only using 600 BP. The way I see it is, it's a lot more fun to play a character with room to grow. The opposition can always become more powerful, but there's a pretty firm ceiling for runners. I'd rather have a bit of time before I hit that ceiling.

Actually, I'd always thought that the intent was that if Elves get Charisma starting at 2, and you buy it up to 6, you're spending 40 points, (10bp a point, buying 4 points), rather than 55 (30 to take you to 5, 25 bp for the last point). This makes sense, since the ceiling for charisma in elves is 7, so the 7th point is the 'last' point that would cost 25BP. Right?

[Glyph]

It's 3/8 for elves - it's the Agility that's 2/7. But this is a karma-gen character. They are still restricted to a single core Attribute maxed out at char-gen, but they don't have the same "balloon payment" charge for that final Attribute point that they would get in the build point system.

On the other hand, with Karma, it costs more for an elf to go from 3 to 8 than it would cost a human to go from 1 to 6 (60 points for a human to raise it to 6, 90 points for the elf to raise it to 8 ). This is why Cthulhudreams' house rule, which charges a cost for metahumans, also has them buy the Attribute up with Karma, then apply the racial modifiers. So the elf won't be paying 60 karma to be an elf and paying 90 karma for a Charisma of 8.

[JonathanC]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. Btw, any thoughts on the technomancer?

[Ryu]

I suggest Resonance 5 (Stealth 5), Edge 3, Ork, Spoof 5. If you want to stay human, it´s Edge 5 instead. One point of edge could be replaced by Codeslinger and Erased(from RC).

Another idea would be to include Trust Fund (high) at the cost of willpower. Mind the 35BP cap on positive qualities...

[JonathanC]

Eh, I wanted to keep the Willpower and Resonance high because Firewall is fairly important, and resonance will be a bitch to buy up later on...believe me, I was sure missing those 25 BP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Trust Fund is mighty tempting though...

[Ryu]

I thought you were going for the silent route. Against those opponents that can attack your living node, Firewall 5 won´t help much. If you want to get some use out of Firewall, you need the Attack and Shield CFs. Reduce Electronics to 2, buy Attack 5, Shield 5, Armor 5, Quality of Choice (5BP).

[JonathanC]

I was planning on threading a lot, which is why the Electronics group was important. Incidentally, isn't it legal in chargen to buy a group up to 4, then buy one of the skills up to 6? I could swear that someone here once suggested that it wasn't, but the book seems to suggest that you can, the disadvantage is that you can't buy the group up against until all the skills are at the same level.

[Glyph]

Breaking a skill group at char-gen is not explicitly forbidden, but a lot of people feel it is implicitly forbidden. It's one of those things that it's a good idea to ask your GM about.

[Ryu]

Hmm. It´s better to start with max. CF then a higher threading pool. You gain only two thirds of a hit for threading, that is not much. The karmic worth of 4 rating 5 CFs is 64, while Electronics 2->4 costs 35 karma (TM=>karma system=>less head-aches). DP-wise, you end up more specialised, gaining a net 4,33 dice for some activities.

According to the FAQ, dissolving a group at chargen is legal, but requires special GM approval. I strongly suggest to call it legal and be done with, as everything else is not a clear state, and GM approval is part of chargen anyway. (We had no debate before someone read the FAQ, two years ago when it was fresh.)

SKILLS

When can you break up a skill group into its component skills? Can you break it up during character creation? Can I break apart a skill group in order to buy a specialization for one of the skills?

You can break apart a skill group whenever you want--as long as the GM allows it. We advise against breaking apart skill groups during character creation in order to keep it simple and counter min-maxing. Any time you improve a single skill within a skill group or add a specialization to one of those skills, that skill group no longer exists.

[JonathanC]

Thanks for the advice. I've revised my goals for this build a bit...I'm too tired to crunch the numbers for the equipment right now, but I think this would be more playable than my first try. It seems to me that if you're a competent Sprite summoner, you only really need the combat CFs and basic B&E CFs, since they can fill in most/all of the rest of the holes in a pinch.

Body 4
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 4
Intuition 4
Logic 3
Willpower 5

Edge 4
Essence 6
Resonance 5

Contacts
Horizon Johnson 3/3

Qualities
Technomancer 5
Paragon: Idoru 5
Albinism -10
Asthma -15
Oblivious -5
Poor Self Control: Compulsive (fastidiously clean) -5

Complex Forms
Stealth 5
Exploit 5
Analyze 5
Attack 5
Armor 5
Shield 5

Skills
Tasking Group 4
Compiling 5
Registering 5
Cracking Group 4
Software 4
Con (Seduction) 2(4) 4/6 w/Idoru bonus
Etiquette (Matrix) 2(4)
Dodge (ranged) 1/3

25,000 budget for equipment/lifestyle

[piiman]

Hey all, This is a ninja type character I have been working on, please tell me what you think. We are using the 400 BP way of building.

Ork
B - 4 A - 5 R - 5 S - 4 C - 2 I - 4 L - 4 W - 4
E - 1 M - 5

Negative Qaulities:
Poor Self Control Vindictive
Allergy Dog Mild
SINner
Records On File

Positive Qaulities:
Ninjutsu +1 inf
Krav Maga Aim free action
Adept

Skills:
Climbing 2
Running 3
Gynastic 3
Long Arm 4
Blade 4
Stealth skill Group 4 (Infiltrate is a 6)
Escape Artist 5
Perception 5
Thrown 3

Contacts:
Madison Fixer 3/3
Silver Supply Sergeant 3/3

24BP worth of items
Snaptic Boosters ,Armor Jacket ,Nodachi ,Vibro blade Knife ,Ares Desert Strike ,Smart Gun external ,Silencer ,Novatech Navi ,Fairligt Caliban ,Trodes Fake Sin rank 3 (3) Fake License rank 4 (3) Mid Life Style Goggles Image Link Vision Enhancement 3 Head Phones Audio Enhancement 3 Maglock Keypad Anti-Tamper 4 Flash Light Respirator 6 Survival kit
(For mods the follow the item)

Adept Powers Imp Ability perception 2
Imp ability Perception 2
Flexibility 2
Sustenance
Missle Mastery
Strong Throw 3
Quick Draw
3d Memory

Knowledge
English 4
Japanese Native
Eastern martial arts 4
Western Martial Arts 4
Safe Houses 4
Cooking 4
Security Measures 4

[Glyph]

Power Throw is capped at 3 by the errata. I'm very confused that you have this, and missile mastery, at all, since this character has no throwing skill.

For the cost of Climbing: 2, Running: 3, and Gymnastics: 3, you could buy the Athletics skill group at 3. This would raise Climbing to 3 and give you Swimming: 3.

If you are getting synaptic booster: 1, you might as well get muscle toner: 2 and a reflex recorder - if you're giving up a point of Magic, get a full point of bioware! Unless you're trying to save up for synaptic booster: 2 later.

I'm kind of surprised that you gave this guy such a high skill in escape artist. Perception I can understand, but escape artist shouldn't come up that much. I would use your other skill of 5 for one of your offensive skills. Having no specializations will make you weaker starting out, but they are much cheaper to buy during the game.

[piiman]

Pistol was changed to throw, didnt change it here
forgot about the skill group
I am saving for synaptic booster 2
and escape artist is that high because of flexibility adept power. So i can crawl in air ducts and such

[Glyph]

Escape artist isn't the skill used for that, though. The flexibility power all by itself allows that. Escape artist is used to escape from things like rope or handcuffs. It's useful, but not to the point that I would take it at a higher rating than the combat skills. Escape artist is a threshold test with intervals, while combat skills are a dice contest where you have to contend with negative modifiers, dodging or blocking enemies, and then their damage resistance test. So, combat skills are the ones that you generally need to have higher.

[JonathanC]

So, I decided to go with a 'just for fun' build here. Nothing mechanically interesting, to be honest. I just thought that it would be hilarious to stat out a Rat shaman who SURGE'd into a 'rat-girl' of sorts...beady rat eyes, anime-esque rat ears, and a thick, hairless rat tail. Being as my current game is in L.A., it also seemed like a fun idea to make her a local celebrity, and a regular on the club DJ scene. 400BP, though only 395 are spent here, leaving the remaining points for equipment. I imagine this could be playable, perhaps with some tweaking. I might have boosted conjuring a bit, and obviously the Edge is low. This is more of a proof of concept than something that's optimized for play...I never spend this much on Positive Qualities. But it does look like fun to play.

Veronica McPhail, the Rat-Girl
BODY 3
AGILITY 3
REACTION 2
STRENGTH 2
CHARISMA 5
INTUITION 3
LOGIC 3
WILLPOWER 5
EDGE 2
ESSENCE 6
MAGIC 5
INITIATIVE

SPELLS
Stunball
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Trid Phantasm
Improved Invisibility
Physical Mask
Mana Barrier
Powerbolt

SKILLS 140
Sorcery Group 4
Spellcasting 6
Conjuring Group 3
Pilot Ground Vehicle (bike) 2(4)
Infiltration (Urban) 4(6) total of 9 with Rat bonus
Etiquette 3
Negotiation 3
Dodge (ranged) 3(5)

CONTACTS
Night Club Owner Loyalty 4/ Connection 3

Positive Qualities (35 points)
Fame [local: The L.A. Ratgirl] (5 points)
Magician (15 points)
Mentor Spirit [Rat] (5 points)
Class II SURGE (10 points)
Extravagant Eyes (-5)
Vestigial Tail (-5)
Ogre Stomach (5)
Low-Light Vision (5)
Vomeronasal Organ (10)

Negative Qualities: (-35 points)
Day Job [Party DJ; 10 hours a week, 3k/month](-5 points)
Poor Self Control [Compulsive: collects found trinkets] (-5)
Albinism (-10)
Cursed (-5)
SINner (-5)
Dependent [slacker roommate] (-5)

25,000 Nuyen for lifestyle and accessories