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> Naysayers gone?, Not much "SR4 SUX!" anymore...
Larme
post Dec 8 2008, 07:59 PM
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I remember not too long ago when there were multiple 10+ page threads with people arguing whether SR4 was good or not. It usually hinged on whether GM discretion was an acceptable thing to rely on in an RPG (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) . Also, some people though that if something is released with typos, that means it's "low quality" (though I think most of them still played it, so I'm not sure why they cared what "quality" label we put on it).

Are those people gone? Have they given up trying to make us dislike the new game, it being not-so-new and firmly entrenched as the replacement for SR3 at this point? I sure hope so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Dec 8 2008, 08:05 PM
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there was, at least in the beginning, some mod-saying not to compare 4th and 3rd ed.
and people are keeping to that mostly.
i still don't like it.
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imperialus
post Dec 8 2008, 08:14 PM
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Naw, they aren't gone. There's still a lot of SR3 players on Dumpshock.

Things have become fairly civil though. (I think) FrankTrollman got banned which helped cool things down a lot but like most flamewars it just burnt itself out and people moved on. I mean no one around here has the same level of dedication as Derick Smart.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 8 2008, 08:16 PM
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shame, really . . i quite enjoyed his little flame wars with other people and general posting style . . and he DID raise some valid and sometimes even good points . .
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hobgoblin
post Dec 8 2008, 08:17 PM
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iirc, frank never got banned. but i suspect he moved on with studies and other stuff...
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Dumori
post Dec 8 2008, 08:27 PM
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He quite the board afther it got personal with him and some of the freelancers IIRC he called aaron a bad writer or somethign very close to that. then I think the mods suspened him or the threat of such made him leave
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WeaverMount
post Dec 8 2008, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 8 2008, 04:17 PM) *
iirc, frank never got banned. but i suspect he moved on with studies and other stuff...

In a snit with Aaron he basically laid out just how bad the matrix rules are in no uncertain terms. That or fall out from that got him banned for 3 days. He took that as a sign and just stopped posting. But if you check his profile he's been on much more recently than that. Which is a good thing. I can completely understand never wanted to WORK with Frank, but running him off from DS just bad for the SR community.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 8 2008, 08:33 PM
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heh, seems i missed something. but then i bail out of most of the threads that develop into these debates ones i sense forge theory being deployed (see the "gm discression" issue larme mentions, for example)...
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streetangelj
post Dec 8 2008, 08:36 PM
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I think it has more to do with the quality and timeliness that Catalyst is putting out products to support 4th ed. I'm sure their are still plenty of 3rd ed holdouts but most people have settled on their houserules to fix whatever they think is wrong with 4th and are plugging along, at least that's what I did when I finally switched over last year and started my 2nd 4th ed campaign a few months ago.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 8 2008, 08:44 PM
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http://www.weregeek.com/2008/12/03/
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TheOOB
post Dec 8 2008, 08:48 PM
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If you like flame wars, jump onto a D&D board, the 3e vs, 4e debate is still raging. It happens whenever a popular game gets a new edition. The fans of the new editions say that the system is improved and way better then the old one and that anyone who doesn't upgrade is an idiot, fans of the old one say that the game is ruined and take it as a personal insult, then eventually everyone realizes that they won't burn your old edition books, so you can play whatever edition you want.
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nezumi
post Dec 8 2008, 09:43 PM
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There are plenty of SR3 people still around, myself included.

However, we've already had the debates. The people who will be convinced most likely already have been, and there's not likely anything that can be said to convince the remainder. Frankly, if anyone brought up the subject again, it would be much easier to reference you to previous threads where the benefits of each system were carefully examined, than to rehash it all myself.

Plus, the mods specifically banned such debates for a while, and most people decided to respect that.
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Matsci
post Dec 8 2008, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 8 2008, 09:44 PM) *

I believe this is the more relevant one.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 8 2008, 09:51 PM
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heh, i had totally gorgotten about that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
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Blacken
post Dec 8 2008, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE (streetangelj @ Dec 8 2008, 03:36 PM) *
I think it has more to do with the quality and timeliness that Catalyst is putting out products to support 4th ed. I'm sure their are still plenty of 3rd ed holdouts but most people have settled on their houserules to fix whatever they think is wrong with 4th and are plugging along, at least that's what I did when I finally switched over last year and started my 2nd 4th ed campaign a few months ago.
I'm a third edition holdout. I gave it an honest try to do exactly what you suggest, but the game is too fundamentally not-Shadowrun, in my opinion, for me to enjoy it. Wireless matrix? Very not-Shadowrun, IMO. Technomancers? Well, I thought the otaku were idiotic to begin with. Street samurai fun-toys being given to everyone else for free? Fails the "does this suck?" test. And a lot of the flavor stuff (the use of real-world four-letter words comes to mind as a very offhand example) strikes me as "trying too hard" to be up-to-date-and-did-I-mention-we're-edgy for my tastes.

But I don't expect anyone else to agree with me, so I just shrug and keep playing SR3.
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ElFenrir
post Dec 8 2008, 10:29 PM
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I was a 3e holdout for a long time, but as more books came out, I slowly started toward 4; and I'd say after Augmentation/Arsenal, was my complete switchover in my heart(we had switched at the table, but I had a few stubborn remnants.) RC made it all the better for me.

I have no ill will at all toward SR3, and think they are indeed both good editions in their own right. But I can understand wanting to keep the discussions to a minimum, I do recall things being rather...hot for awhile.
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Larme
post Dec 8 2008, 11:10 PM
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So, they're not gone, they've just given up trying to change the minds of people who (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) SR4. Good to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm sad to hear that Frank is gone. It's true that he could be pretty irritating when he got into a flame war about the stuff he hated in SR4. But it was nice when he used his insider information to nuke silly rules interpretations that the devs never intended.

@Blacken: I hear you on SR4 being not-Shadowrun in many ways. But to me, that's not a bad thing, because Shadowrun was based on assumptions William Gibson made about future tech back in the 1980s. Now that it's clearer what direction technology is going in, the game needed an update... As does the whole cyberpunk genre, probably.
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Blacken
post Dec 8 2008, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
@Blacken: I hear you on SR4 being not-Shadowrun in many ways. But to me, that's not a bad thing, because Shadowrun was based on assumptions William Gibson made about future tech back in the 1980s. Now that it's clearer what direction technology is going in, the game needed an update... As does the whole cyberpunk genre, probably.
I play it because it doesn't match up to the "future" according to extrapolation from today. 80's Punk Future for the win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Cain
post Dec 8 2008, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (Larme @ Dec 8 2008, 03:10 PM) *
@Blacken: I hear you on SR4 being not-Shadowrun in many ways. But to me, that's not a bad thing, because Shadowrun was based on assumptions William Gibson made about future tech back in the 1980s. Now that it's clearer what direction technology is going in, the game needed an update... As does the whole cyberpunk genre, probably.

That's a bit like saying that since Star Wars was written in the late 70's-early 80's, it needed an update and three extra movies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
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Apathy
post Dec 8 2008, 11:50 PM
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Personally, I like them both. I whined and complained about what I percieved as holes in the rules in SR3, and now I'm whining and complaining about the rules in SR4. But I like either system and wish I still had time to play.
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The Jake
post Dec 9 2008, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Dec 8 2008, 11:29 PM) *
I was a 3e holdout for a long time, but as more books came out, I slowly started toward 4; and I'd say after Augmentation/Arsenal, was my complete switchover in my heart(we had switched at the table, but I had a few stubborn remnants.) RC made it all the better for me.

I have no ill will at all toward SR3, and think they are indeed both good editions in their own right. But I can understand wanting to keep the discussions to a minimum, I do recall things being rather...hot for awhile.


Similar story. I liked the Wireless Matrix as it finally seemed the key to solving the whole decker problem we GMs have had to content with for the past 18 odd years. I decided to buy 4th Ed after Unwired and Runner's Companion were released.

I am still pissed at them though for releasing 4th ed after I had just fully completed my 3rd ed collection and grown very fond of the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Edit: it seems to be the industry norm they re-release the rules for every RPG every 3 years. Sigh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.
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Shadow
post Dec 9 2008, 01:32 AM
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Should they have improved SR3 instead of making a whole new game and calling it Shadowrun? Yes. Did they do that? No. Is there any use in pointing out how everything I said before, during and after release pretty much happened? No.

The good news is SR is under much better management. The bad news is it didn't happen 3 years ago.

Do I play SR4? I have to, my GM does games at conventions and we have to use the newest rules. I will say this for SR4... compared to D&D 4, Shadowrun 4 is the greatest game ever made.
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BlueMax
post Dec 9 2008, 02:06 AM
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Some of us First and Second edition fans are still here, too.
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Hagga
post Dec 9 2008, 02:33 AM
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I must admit I have been wondering, after seeing some of the signatures (And my most hated of posters, Abschalten) why there was no digital mob with pitchforks and torches.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 9 2008, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Dec 9 2008, 12:42 AM) *
That's a bit like saying that since Star Wars was written in the late 70's-early 80's, it needed an update and three extra movies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)


star wars have been continually expanded in just about every format known to man since the first movies was produced...
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