Naysayers gone?, Not much "SR4 SUX!" anymore... Options

[Larme]

That camp is why some people still play it. I like that aspect of the game. Interesting anachronisms are fun.

See, now there's a way to explain your game preferences without trying to belittle someone else's choice as stupid, an example that at least one other person could learn from...

For what it's worth, I think that Cyberpunk 2020 is the best game for camp value. I mean, a cell phone plan with "all the features" such as call waiting and caller ID will run you 200 bucks per month... And neon colors are the permanent height of fashion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[evilgoattea]

I remember not too long ago when there were multiple 10+ page threads with people arguing whether SR4 was good or not. It usually hinged on whether GM discretion was an acceptable thing to rely on in an RPG (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) . Also, some people though that if something is released with typos, that means it's "low quality" (though I think most of them still played it, so I'm not sure why they cared what "quality" label we put on it).

Are those people gone? Have they given up trying to make us dislike the new game, it being not-so-new and firmly entrenched as the replacement for SR3 at this point? I sure hope so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you want to hang yourself trying to get into a game with cool art, cool fluff but terrible rules buy Cadwallon by Rackham...that game is almost unplayable because the rules were orginally written in french, and tranlasted to english...badly lol the art and story are amazing...rules not so much.

My only problem with the SR 4 rulebook is that it is scatterbrained, its always telling you to turn to another page to looking something up and then to another page and another page.

-Josh

[Stahlseele]

looks down to Stahlseele
Do I Know you from Germany ??

yes

[Larme]

My only problem with the SR 4 rulebook is that it is scatterbrained, its always telling you to turn to another page to looking something up and then to another page and another page.

Ah yes, paper, the medium of choice when dinosaurs still roamed the earth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I just use the 'go' function on my .pdf and get there instantly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I don't think the SR4 rulebook is too bad on that front though. The worst of its foibles are in the gear section I think, where a device is explained in one place, and then in the cyberware section it says "an implanted version of device x" and doesn't give you a page reference.

[Fuchs]

PDF are great to find rules.

[masterofm]

Still not the biggest fan, but I said my piece and it got totally taken out of context and then turned into a 12 page slog fest. I'm done with that noise.

On a different note our group is now planning to either move into a D20 Earthdawn skin, a gurps/wushu version of Earthdawn (wushu for the combat, gurps for everything else,) or possibly a white wolf version of it. We have yet to discuss it in detail though of which we are going to use.

[Malachi]

I'm fairly certain the paper in fatal is laced with an airborne toxin that is released when burned. It makes you want to roll for your characters anal circumference.

Sounds like another Spawn of Fashan.

[ElFenrir]

Sounds like another Spawn of Fashan.

No, anal circumference and nipple size were from a much, much, darker game than Spawn of Fashan.

I have read the book, and all the amount of brain bleach in the world will not remove the taint. It's like gazing on Cthulhu while speaking Hastur's name over and over again while Shub-Niggurath is dancing in a pool full of Jell-O behind you while listening to ABBA.

Really, any game has good rules compared to Anal Circumference land.

[Stahlseele]

if you really want to, just open a pdf document and search for the word rape . . i'm pretty sure you won't find it anywhere else quite that often . .

[Ryu]

He also failed to hire a decent director.

I believe "Hush, you!" is an appropiate response? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Larme]

I have read the book, and all the amount of brain bleach in the world will not remove the taint. It's like gazing on Cthulhu while speaking Hastur's name over and over again while Shub-Niggurath is dancing in a pool full of Jell-O behind you while listening to ABBA.

Normally I'd say you were exaggerating, since you're not a gibbering maniac trying to summon the Elder Gods into the world and end humanity. But if we take the Call of Cthulu RPG as literally true, then you lose a random amount of sanity between 1% and 100% from seeing Cthulu himself. So it's possible to do those things without going crazy.

Though that raises the question: WHY?? I got curious about FATAL after people mentioned it, and a quick google turned up a review. I couldn't even finish that review, because reading about the game made me feel kinda ill... It wasn't the graphic sexual violence either, but rather how shitty it sounded-- I'm not typically offended by works of fiction because of their content, but when their execution is as horribly botched as that it becomes an abomination (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif) So... why would you read an abomination? Just to see what all the buzz is about? >.<

[ElFenrir]

Well, I THOUGHT I had thick skin. See, I have done reviews for all manner of games, music, and movies during my reviewing career. I've had to slog through some stuff that is downright vile. I mean, I could handle about anything.

But curiousity, you know. I HAD to see if it was true. I mean, I learned that sometimes reviews don't tell the whole story, etc. So, I decided to crack it.

It's true. It was all true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

it's basically 2g1c of RPG's . . or tubgirl . . or goatse . . or WHATEVER . .

[Shadow]

I think the bottom line for those of us who do not like SR4 at all, or just plane liked SR3 better is that in the end, we don't matter. The company erased the vision created by FASA to make a new vision by Rob Boyle that was less than panoramic. That's fine it was his game he could do what he wanted with it. In the end I think that is what got most of us angry.

As for me I still play SR4. Do I buy all the books that come out like I did for SR3... No. Because in a few years they are going to come up with some lame excuse (like they did with 3) to update the edition. And we will start this all over again. At least between 1 and 3 we could use all the source books that had come out. Not so for 4.

[Malachi]

That's a largely subjective criticism. Besides, all of the various location books from SR3 are still pretty applicable. I still use New Seattle in addition to Runner Havens, and (judging by the release schedule) the other books like the "Target" and "Shadows of" books aren't going to be replaced for awhile.

[Shadow]

They are not going to be replaced, but other than the names of the city, how good is 6 to 10 to 20 year old info? Not very. Sure you can use em but not any of the rules, and for most games I think the gear/rules are what people are concerned about, not setting info... which is readily availible on the web. No need to buy a book with no rules in it.

[Malachi]

Oh, well when SR3 came out I put the Street Samurai Catalog, Field of Fire, Shadowtech, and Cybertechnology on my shelf and never touched them again because I assumed (correctly) that they would be replaced... so I guess I don't see the difference now.

[HappyDaze]

I'm a SR hater these days, but I'm not too particular regarding what edition. The game has just gone so far from where my tastes are these days that it's hard for me to get any enjoyment out of it anymore. It's only my 'glory days' memories of the game I used to love that keeps me looking around this place occasionally. The last SR product that truly gave me any enjoyment was the video game, and I never played that - I just loved how wound up it got all the tightasses around here.

[SincereAgape]

So far I have been really content with the SR 4 product despite being very wary of the main book upon purchase. I even went on to write a negative review of the product on Amazon. But after running a few sessions with a very dynamic group of role-players my mind has certainly changed on the product. It really depends on who you play with and the group size. I am pretty sure there is a campaign style for each and every type of Shadowrun fan at heart. If we don't like the system, re-work so that you will enjoy it, which is something the SR4 main book quotes on many occassions.

[Larme]

As for me I still play SR4. Do I buy all the books that come out like I did for SR3... No. Because in a few years they are going to come up with some lame excuse (like they did with 3) to update the edition. And we will start this all over again. At least between 1 and 3 we could use all the source books that had come out. Not so for 4.

RPGs are a business?? Quick, we must wake the ghost of FASA and inform them that the way to make money with RPGs is to run them as a business! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Honestly, I can't blame a publishing company for wanting to bring us something new to wring more money out of us. It's hard to condemn them, especially when I'm the one who clicks 'buy' on their handy .pdf downloading site.

Though I honestly don't know why you would think that they'd come out with a 5th ed in a "few years." They just got done with the last core book. Remember, 3rd went through multiple editions of every source book (i.e. matrix, matrix 2.0, virtual realities; rigger, rigger 2, rigger 3...). Catalyst is probably going to do that for a good long while before they make a new edition. Honestly, I can't see the basis for criticizing a new edition, I think that giving us a brand new game is nicer than giving us updated sourcebooks with just enough new toys to make us repurchase them...

[TheOOB]

My group is still arguing about this heavily. We've got one guy who believes that 4E is far superior, the rest of us like having unique(and usually very well built) characters.

That's the kind of comment that starts the flame wars. There is nothing about one addition that makes your characters more unique or well thought out then the other edition(aside from a sheer lack of material beings one edition has been around for as long) if anything 4e allows more customization then 3e as it doesn't require you to follow a liner class progression.

But I degress. What really makes characters unique and interesting is the players. You can be playing in a poor system and have a lot of fun with a good group, and a great system with a poor group will be boring. Simply pick the system that has the mechanics you want and have fun, you can argue about which systems mechanics you like better, but never act like one system makes better role playing or what not, because that is solely the responsibility of the players(the the GM).

[Fortune]

Remember, 3rd went through multiple editions of every source book (i.e. matrix, matrix 2.0, virtual realities; rigger, rigger 2, rigger 3...).

Not quite. The books you list were from all the previous editions, not just 3rd. Virtual Realities and Rigger 1 (Rigger Black Book) were from 1st Edition, while Rigger 2 was from 2nd Edition. Rigger 3 was a 3rd Edition book, and it was released in a revised version (Rigger 3 Revised), but not as a totally new product.

[Blacken]

See, now there's a way to explain your game preferences without trying to belittle someone else's choice as stupid, an example that at least one other person could learn from...

For what it's worth, I think that Cyberpunk 2020 is the best game for camp value. I mean, a cell phone plan with "all the features" such as call waiting and caller ID will run you 200 bucks per month... And neon colors are the permanent height of fashion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah--but I like Shadowrun, not CP2020. I like Sixth World magic and immortal elves and all the rest. I don't like whiz-bang "reimaginings" and bringing the game (for a reason that ties in all the worst parts of Shadowrun, like the otaku and the AI bounce-arounds--Deus was cool as long as he was in SCIRE and lame as hell after) up to be a future-of-today instead of a future-of-yesterday.

I think I can use the Fallout games as an example of this. The first two games were set in the future of the 1950's. You've got Atomic this and Nuclear that and all the cars have really awesome tail fins. "Science!" was the word of the day, not "science." It was what people thought the future might have been then. Then Fallout Tactics comes along. While an absolutely wonderful game, it had modern-day tanks and APCs and M16s and Beretta 92's for the taking! Instead of being the "SCIENCE!" world, it became "TODAY!" and lost almost all of the flavor of the original games. SR4 feels the same way to me. I was born in 1987. The pink mohawks and punk-rock influences of Shadowrun are a setting to me more than a defined "future" and that's the way I like it.

I think the bottom line for those of us who do not like SR4 at all, or just plane liked SR3 better is that in the end, we don't matter. The company erased the vision created by FASA to make a new vision by Rob Boyle that was less than panoramic. That's fine it was his game he could do what he wanted with it. In the end I think that is what got most of us angry.

Pretty much. No disrespect to Mr. Boyle, but I think he doesn't get Shadowrun as some players do--it may not be my place to say this, but I really don't think the majority of the writers of the core book at least "get" Shadowrun at all. Which is fine, they made a very conscious decision to leave a contingent Shadowrun fans out in the cold with their changes in order to play for new blood--having writers who are steeped in how Shadowrun was in SR1/SR2/SR3 would probably have been really bad for their purposes. That's their prerogative, they shelled out the money to buy the property. It doesn't mean that we're not out in the cold and doesn't mean we don't have a reason to be pretty bitter. A lot of us love Shadowrun and just can't love what it's turned into. There was a feel to it when it was being written by Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley and that group. SR3, which was arguably a better ruleset, lost some of that, but it was still recognizably Shadowrun and felt like it. SR4? "We're new people, so we're going to change everything! Rock on!" Their intent? Maybe not. What they did? I think so, at least.

And that's not to say there aren't serious plusses to SR4. Honestly, if they put out a "SR3 Refresh" book or books, with the game setting the same but the rules updated to the SR4 ruleset? I would buy that in a goddamn heartbeat. It's not the game system that drives me batty, it's the to-me-idiotic design decisions when it comes to the world in which we're asked to play.



Of course...the funny thing is that I'm sketching out designs for a Shadowrun 4 MUD. I never said I was consistent...just that I don't like what they've done. It's more of a favor to other people than something I want.

[Larme]

Well, it all comes down to fun and taste. People like games where they have fun, that suit their taste. That's not really something you can argue about. That's why so many people like WoW, even though in many ways it is a job and not a game, where you are rewarded with fake digital items in exchange for your real, potentially valuable time. I can talk to people about what's wrong with WoW (though I'm not the expert) and chances are they will never see it my way because they have fun playing the game. That's just something that argument can't take away (though I know now that the naysayers will never stop trying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[hobgoblin]

hmm, blacken got me thinking of something, that those that swear by the older cyberpunk games are the ones that hit the teens in the middle of the punk-rock era, and may use the games to relive those years...