Why is wetwork so terrible?, What are the scruples? Options

[Chrysalis]

If a character of mine has no trouble shooting a security guard in the neck, they will most likely have no problem in removing them from the living with a shot in the head for money.

If someone hires you to do a job, you do it. Morality is a slippery slope and a good one in movies, but not necessarily one which will keep you alive in the world of shadowrun. Morality means you end up having to figure out where that container is going, what is in it, and who will it harm. You end up spending a huge amount of time working around the mission to make sure no one (including puppies or kittens) will be harmed. While if you keep asking questions, you give an impression of either being a pillock, or a policeman or possibly even both.

Now it is of course entirely possible that you are being recruited into some shadowy organisation which needs a few dirtied angels to run its jobs for it in saving the earth. And that for some reason they wish to hire people who do want to go around asking stupid questions from people who would rather run you through than look at you. However, if they really wanted to do that, they should should just go and hire fresh nosed cadets from police school who still know what a moral and what to do with it. Not a bunch of shadowrunners who commonly like nosecandy and underaged prostitutes.

[AllTheNothing]

I think most peopel would say killing a child (say below the age of puberty) is morally wrong, but is it as morally wrong to kill the kid if he's pointing an RPG at you, your friends, family or property? (lol thoughts of Shadowrun books being pointed at my house), what if the kid is swinging a knife at you, what about a brick, what about his fists? Is it okay to kill a homeless man who arguably has no utility for humanity but morally wrong to kill the preminent scientist of an era?

A kid pointing an RPG? (I take you mean Rocket Propelled Granade) Dependes, I would not like to lose my home but property damage is not worth a life unless it makes life impossible for the owner. If the kid is aiming to my family or friends dependes on the options aviable at the moment, if possible I would try to disable him inflicting the least damage possible (by disabling I also mean trying to talk him/her into putting the weapon) and try to understand why was him/her doing it, if impossible I would defend those I care for (what the hell was the kid doing with an RPG anyway?); If the kid is swinging a knife at me I would react in the least letal way possible while protecting myself (if he/she puts me in the condition of killing or be killed than I just responded to an instinctive imperative: Survive!). Killing the homeless because is useless to humanity is twisted, the homeless could be just a decent person who didn't make it in the rat race? Maybe he was fine untill some rich bastard chose to close the implant where he/she worked to transfer it somewhere where workforce is much cheaper, maybe he/she is just someone who chose (and tries) to live his/hers life free from the concerns that most of peoples have, as long as he/she doesn't attack you why should you attack him, if anything you should give him/her a chance to make himself/herself a new life; and speaking of being no use to humanity, are we that much of use either, and the society "elite"?
In SR things are much different than our world (thankfully we're not SR..... yet), when you're starving you become a predator and if you're asked to kill someone it's making the difference betwen killng or dieing (slowly) so low level bloodshed is something rookie 'runners are probably going to face, as they work their way up the food chain the pressure will be lower and morals will play a bigger part but it's still a matter of survival, the corpsec fire usualy doesn't make differences on moral base, nor is less letal because you are playing nice so professionals will probably try to avoid killing for both pratical reasons and morals one, but won't endanger themselves for sparing the life of a security guy who put them in the conditions of having to kill or be killed, sure it's a pity to waste a life but if a life must be wasted let it be his life. Shadowrunners are peoples that live on the fringes both of society and moral scale, they are alienated to some extent and probably 'runners feel the weight of it and try to retain as much of their (meta)humanity as possible, trying to avoid useless collateral damage, trying to not take 'runs that would cause the death of innocent as required part of the 'run (think during the year of the comet the Azzies hiring 'runners to bomb Stuffer Shacks to blame the insurgent as terrorists), trying to live by their own principles despite the world seems to tell them it's insanity doing so. Yes some people will take on wetwork, but I think that most of people will try to avoid killing as much as possible and will kill only if forced to do so (yes there are people that play characters that won't take on wetwork but will kick the front door mowing down any opposition without regrett, but I think they just like a bit of unrealistic senseless mayhem to break free from everyday life boredom), some will go as far to not want to kill at all (the infamous Pacifist negative quality).

[hyzmarca]

Then you add the fact that the popular culture idea of the super-cool, shaken-not-stirred assassin really doesn't exist and you further muddy the waters. It's a great fantasy, but it's exactly that...a fantasy.

Real assassins get caught or killed more often than not. Real assassins live lives of paranoid misery. Real assassins, almost to a person, are grade-A psychos (and the others are grade-B psychos).

I think a bigger issue is the fact that the job of professional assassin is one that doesn't actually exist in the real world. Organizations that commission targeted killings do not hire people from the outside. Instead, the assign their in-house assets, usually on a case-by-case basis.

This is true of military forces (which tend to use whatever weapons are most convenient, often making wetwork the domain of guys who sit at consoles pressing buttons), intelligence services (who gives the assignment to whatever agent happens to be in position to complete it), organized crime (which tends to just assign whomever is up for the job), terrorist organizations (which assign people to jobs as needed) and big businesses (which use their own security forces). The big exception to this is police departments, which do employ dedicated assassination squads, when they're inclined to (the LAPD Gun Squad, for example, or any number other death squads) but these aren't people hired for the specific purpose of assassination, they're just normal cops who happen to have been assigned to an assassination unit.

In all of these cases, excepting organized crime and terrorist organizations, the chances of suffering negative consequences are fairly low. If you launch a cruise missile at a specific guy from the safety of a console on a ship, you aren't in much danger of getting caught by his protectors. Military ground forces assigned to targeted killings are a bit more vulnerable, but no more so than they would be otherwise. Both can go home to family at the end of the tour. Spies who are called upon to terminate targets are in more danger, but they generally have the advantage of a diplomatic cover, meaning that the worst thing opposing police forces can do is deport them. And if they're deported, they can just go home to their families. It is a paranoid life, sure, but not necessarily a lonely one. Police, of course, don't have to worry about arresting themselves while disappearing political dissidents and criminals. And big business doesn't usually engage in assassination unless they have powerful paramilitary security forces and a great deal of local political influence.


The freelance assassin's job, I imagine, is fraught with peril. Simply getting hired is an exercise in danger. But only private individuals hire freelancers. And usually, these guys aren't professional killers, they're just dudes who do odd jobs for cash, and just happen to have been offered some cash to kill someone. It isn't something you can make a career out of, just because the work is so little and so difficult to find, and the per-job pay tends to suck.

And by the way, doesn't "wetwork" sound way to much like a messy job in the porn industry? We need a term for it that doesn't bring to mind rythmic schlupping sounds.

[Stahlseele]

And by the way, doesn't "wetwork" sound way to much like a messy job in the porn industry? We need a term for it that doesn't bring to mind rythmic schlupping sounds.

big burly troll(m/f) and annoying elf(m/f)?

[wanderer_king]

Just to add my own food for thought:

In the army, snipers are often viewed by other soldiers more as killers then the regular grunt. The grunts use their weapons to "defend themselves", fire back, hold positions, etc. The sniper aims at one dude in particular, then blows his head off.

Talk about a crazy fine line, but if it can apply to soldiers, it can apply to runners. Shooting and killing as collateral is not the same as going out and purposefully killing someone. It doesn't make sense, but the (meta)human mind seems to make a distinction.

That's not even close to true... ask WWII bomber crews if they were happy to be killing people (esp people like the Doolittle Raiders)... ask many people who have been in close quarters combat against people who have threatened their way of life about their feelings... many will claim self defense, but there are plenty who have understood they were killing people, and accepted their duty to do so. Most soldiers aim (even without scopes or sniper equipment on their gear). They can see the people they are killing and may have to deal with that for years.

[psychophipps]

That's not even close to true... ask WWII bomber crews if they were happy to be killing people (esp people like the Doolittle Raiders)... ask many people who have been in close quarters combat against people who have threatened their way of life about their feelings... many will claim self defense, but there are plenty who have understood they were killing people, and accepted their duty to do so. Most soldiers aim (even without scopes or sniper equipment on their gear). They can see the people they are killing and may have to deal with that for years.

But bomber crews and infantry have a strong disconnect when compared to snipers. For bomber crews the enemy is a series of small, minuscule boxes like toy houses and cars where you know someone is alive down there but you don't really see them. Infantry are surrounded by explosions and gunfire and in the heat of the moment thet're mostly firing "over there!" at motion and muzzle flashes with a group of men so you think you might have killed that guy more often than not but you can't be sure what with your whole squad lighting up the area.

A sniper is looking at his target for a while. He's noting what unit the person in their sights is from. The sniper can see the sweat stains under their armpits and watch their targets eyes glancing around nervously left to right as they wipe the sweat from their brow. The sniper picks that person right there, slows their breathing, adjusts their body position and scope for windage and other variables, breathes in, lets half out slowly, and squeezes the trigger to end the life of an enemy who's name tag they can read with a calculated shot to break morale, disrupt leadership, and generally cause maximum discomfit to the enemy.

Apples and oranges, my friend...

[Chrysalis]

Friend of mine was a sniper. Sniping is very close and personal, you see it all happen from the squeeze of the trigger to the jerk of the body as he stops living. Most snipers who are doing it often stop after their sixth kill. They are also often haunted by their victims. Many do kill themselves.

Personally, I have never killed anyone, but I know I have the capacity for it. Like many things aversion to killing or enjoyment of killing can be trained into we can build from a muscle response to a mental one. It can be a learned response. If shadowrun is as hedonistic as today's society with a breakdown of many of the safeguards of society then murder for sport will be quite common. Being a serial killer or mass murderer gives you not only notoriety, but fame.

[Morrigana]

To be honest? If paid enough money, any character I make would pull an assassination. I don't play characters who are usually cold-blooded killers, but they're also not afraid to kill. After all, considering how many corps are willing to kill just for stealing data, it makes a bit of sense to make sure your enemies know you're willing to match any lethal force they send your way.

And, honestly, if a kid comes up armed? Pocket knife, they might limp away with a bullet to the leg. Gun? Well, if they're unlucky, it's going to be EX-EX that gets unloaded into their chest. Doesn't matter if they're young; they're still capable of pulling the trigger.

[Falconer]

To go off on my own tangent.

I suspect the reason wet work is shunned is because of one of the big things about shadowrun. Offense is often >>>> defense. So long as things are quiet and limited to a little bit of skirmishing, society reigns. However, once that bridge is crossed, things can very quickly spiral into a warzone in which no one wins.

Especially the Johnsons, who want to have their ends accomplished, but at the same time don't want too much attention brought to bear as a rampant murder spree would cause. Similarly stop and think how easy it would be for any half decent sniper to pick off your own characters once identified if assassination is the tool of choice. (unaware plus high cal sniper rifle, when you're not decked out in combat armor... dead char... Or even a basic AR at long range (since range penalties are so laughable), an aimed long narrow burst, w/ called shot for +4DV/-4 dice... against no defense roll can easily have you soaking 16 damage or more).

[The Jake]

Most hardcore army/ex-army types I know are wired a little differently. Especially those who have seen front line action.

I know one guy who had over 12 (confirmed) kills and I can tell you for a fact he had no compunction about picking up a .38 and walking outside to shoot someone if he thought they were going to burgle his house. Mind you, this same guy used to wake up with nightmares from time to time from his war experiences but hey...

Some people just live for the action of their jobs and accept killing is often a part of that. I don't see why some people would not become inured/desensitised to it, comfortable with it or, dare I say it - enjoy it.

I have an NPC I'm working on who is a troll mercenary but prefers wetwork for the simplicity of it. I wouldn't say he enjoys wetwork but he's comfortable enough with it that it doesn't bother him. I've tried to base him on these same ex-army types I know.

- J.

[Tachi]

If you plant a low-yeild thermonuclear device in a crowded shopping mall on Black Friday, you're not actually killing anybody. Sure, plenty of people will die, but you aren't really responsible for that. No one made them shop on that day; everyone could have just stayed home and if they did then they would be safe. That makes it just a bunch of suicides, really. It is unreasonable for anyone to blame you for the inevitable rise in the suicide rate at the beginning of the holiday season.

You've been to Wal-mart recently haven't you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Read my post far above. Bombers don't kill people, they just drop bombs. It isn't their fault if people get caught in the blast, and they can't be blamed for it.


Heroes are also cool. And there is nothing cooler than assassins.

James Bond: Assassin
The Terminator: Cyborg Assassin
Mr & Mrs Smith: Assassins
Every Other Steven Seagal Character: Retired Assassin
The Guy from Grosse Point Blank: Assassin
Angel Eyes: Assassin
Agent 47: Assassin
The Jackal: Assassin
The Guys from Assassins: Assassins
Leon: Assassin
Nikita: Assassin
The Deadly Viper Assassination Squad: All Assassins
Slevin and Bruce Willis: Both Assassins
Golgo 13: Assassin
The Guy from Wanted: Assassin
Jason Borne: Assassin
Remo Williams: Assassin
Ninjas: Assassins, every last one of them

The fact is that assassins are some of the coolest characters in modern pop culture. They're the sort of characters that most people want to emulate. Professional Assassin is among the top four jobs that kids want to have when they grow up, right behind Astronaut, Rock Star, and Super Hero.

And the dream of becoming a professional assassin isn't one that is crushed by morality. Even as adults we can still watch these films and dream, silently regretting the career path that never was. No, what stops us from becoming assassins is the same thing that stops us from becoming astronauts, the dream-crushing weight of reality.
It is pretty well impossible to break into the business of freelance international assassination. It's not like you can find someone willing to pay you 10 million dollars to kill the President of Paraguay on Craig's List. The amount of available work is extremely low, and prestigious work is almost non-existent. Likewise, building a strong reputation and attracting clients without getting arrested is extremely difficult.

This, however, doesn't really explain the anti-assassination stance of many shadowrunners. They're already in the game.
What does explain it, more than morality, is entanglement. Thefts, arsons, kidnappings, all of these things usually driven a financial motive. Assassinations tend to driven by political or personal motives, which makes things substantially more complicated and double-cross substantially more likely. People who kill for the bottom line are trustworthy, to a point. People who kill for passion or for a cause are dangerously unpredictable. There is no sense in getting caught up in that mess.
Besides, anyone who can afford to pay you what the assassination is actually worth can also afford to do the killing himself and bribe the police to frame a SINless bum. And you have to ask yourself why he doesn't just do that.

I am a sociopath and I approve this post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

That's not even close to true... ask WWII bomber crews if they were happy to be killing people (esp people like the Doolittle Raiders)... ask many people who have been in close quarters combat against people who have threatened their way of life about their feelings... many will claim self defense, but there are plenty who have understood they were killing people, and accepted their duty to do so. Most soldiers aim (even without scopes or sniper equipment on their gear). They can see the people they are killing and may have to deal with that for years.

BooHoo
Whack 'em all, let emergency services do DNA tests to sort them out. That's my motto.

[psychophipps]

Most hardcore army/ex-army types I know are wired a little differently. Especially those who have seen front line action.

I know one guy who had over 12 (confirmed) kills and I can tell you for a fact he had no compunction about picking up a .38 and walking outside to shoot someone if he thought they were going to burgle his house. Mind you, this same guy used to wake up with nightmares from time to time from his war experiences but hey...

Some people just live for the action of their jobs and accept killing is often a part of that. I don't see why some people would not become inured/desensitised to it, comfortable with it or, dare I say it - enjoy it.

I have an NPC I'm working on who is a troll mercenary but prefers wetwork for the simplicity of it. I wouldn't say he enjoys wetwork but he's comfortable enough with it that it doesn't bother him. I've tried to base him on these same ex-army types I know.

- J.

First off, most infantry who have been there won't tell you that they have X kills because they can't really confirm it because there tends to be 8-11 other blokes all firing up the same general area with rapid-fire weapons and/or explosives. In the case of snipers, it's done as a type of macho competition as they see themselves as big game hunters hunting the most dangerous game on earth. Snipers also will tend to distance themselves from their actions by telling themselves that they are killing this person so they don't kill one of their own compatriots later.

The "hard professional" is much more common in the UK and it's former colonies until you hit the elite units in most other places like the US. They act like it doesn't affect them. They will say that it doesn't affect them. They will talk about killing in the most bland terms without emotion to demonstrate that it doesn't affect them. They will also be just a screwed up with flashbacks, lost sleep from nightmares, and general emotional unavailability as Joe Blow grunt by the killing that they have done. Snipers generally get it worse because they get a really good look at almost everyone they kill.

[Snow_Fox]

Short answer: It isn't!

That sums it up pretty well.

To touch on it a little more I think the early premade adventures may have tried to be 'good' with karma awards which may have given you the impression that the rules looked down on wet work, but it's a game where people break the law for a profession.

Personally my characters usually do not mind killing if they have to on a run, but do not like to take work where the goal is a death. that just seems 'wrong.' but many runners, including the sociaopaths I play with are fine with it.

[MJBurrage]

With respect to the list of all the cool/popular fictional assassins:

Most of the ones I can imagine people wanting to play only kill people who "deserve killing". Bond is probably the most famous example here.

As for those that kill innocent or non-dangerous people, playing a Skynet aligned Terminator is not something most people I know would want to do (outside of a one-shot game).

Lastly for those characters that were unrepentant killers like Bourne was before he "broke", the interesting character is really the one who wants out of that old life.

In the end, it's not real-life assassins that are cool, it's fictional assassins (almost always operating under some kind of code "no women, no kids" to quote Leon) that are cool.

The negative connotations to wetwork are not based on killing, they are based on killing anyone (even if they "don't deserve it"), just for a payday

[Morrigana]

I think we're missing an important item in all of this discussion of wetwork: Who's the usual target for it?

Despite how often corporate types may want each other dead, let's be realistic: The people who are most often the victims of wetwork are the shadowrunners themselves. Someone who willingly does wetwork for a price is someone who is likely to be killing fellow runners, oftentimes not knowing all those other runners may have done wrong is be in the wrong place at the wrong time. So a lot of the disdain towards it is, in part, probably at least survival instinct; you're not going to like the person who you know is likely to be paid to kill you next week.

[Snow_Fox]

If it's wetwork, you really don't question if the person desewrves it. You're starting to make lines too easy to cross when you say 'deserve' or not.

Since someone brought up James Bond, if you read the books, the 00 section are the assassins. They are the special toruble shooters but one of the books, I think it's Thunderball, specfically says they are the men in the Secret Service whose duties can include assassination. That having been said in the main office, they are the glamorous ones who the girls giggle over , Casion Royal, but the other side is in the field. in A View To a Kill Bond goes to Berlin spesifically to kill someone and you see how the people in the Berlin station treat him as someone almost unclear.
In For Your eyes Only he is sent via Canada to kill a man in upstate New York. You see 'M' actually questioning if its a justified kill because it would avenge a personal friend of his.

But Bond is a professional who sometimes considers resigning, like Deckart at the start of the movie Bladerunner, a professional who grows sick in the soul.

A better idea of a professional assassin is Robert Parker's "Hawk" from the Spenser serries of books, and played perfectly on the 80's TV series by Avery Brooks.

[Metapunk]

my current SR group only take lives in self defense. and only take payment for killing if it could hurt a megacorp ( can't remember what corps atm) else they despite paid killing.

though in my first game one of the players were an ex assasin now stealth specced runner.

IMO the opinions towards wetwork vary alot from each person, but I think the book is meaning that players should not want to go this way since it will just be dice rolls and bringing in a freshly sawn off head and get paid for it. simply I think the book wants more of a shadowrun then just killing:)

just gave my answer to the topic. hope I was not too much off topic

[InfinityzeN]

I have normally gone with a highly professional sammy character. Not the crazy haired, leather and spike wearing freak... but the well spoken man in the suit. Rarely carry big guns, normally just a pistol or two and a stungun. Very little Cyber, all of it legal. Lots of Bio, even if it is illegal. Hey, bio is much much harder to detect.

[FlakJacket]

I think it also boils down to a certain extent on peoples self images of themselves. Very few people consider themselves to be the bad guys or 'evil', from the scummiest drug dealer to the most depraved repressive dictator they've got their own excuses and self justifications - "It's the only way I have to make money for my family", "If I don't someone else will", "That's the game", "This country needs a strong leader to stop it falling back into anarchy", "I'm only acting in this manner to stop those dirty commies overthrowing the government and making things even worse", 'We're only using these methods to stop the counter-revolutionaries from rolling back the glorious revolution" etc.

Runners are career criminals. Sure they might lie, cheat, steal, burgle, smuggle contraband goods, burn buildings down, not pay their taxes, shoot people 'in self defence' when carrying out these acts and any number of other deeds... but at least they can point at the people that do wet work and say "Well I might do that at least I'm not as bad as those guys" and still feel a bit morally superior. It's hypocritical as hell but that's human nature, wanting to be able to say that you're superior to person X or group Y. Just like the "Well I only kill people like security guards in self defence" mindset which is a load of rubbish since if they hadn't been breaking into that facility to steal shit then they wouldn't have had to shoot Joe Six-pack who was only doing his job but it makes them feel better/rationalise it easier and lie to themselves.

Even with characters that will take wet work jobs there are still degrees of this and shades of grey. You've got the full spectrum from the people that will happily slaughter entire families with a meat cleaver and throw little Timmy into a wood chipper on the way out if that's what they're paid for no questions asked to the ones that will only kill people with blood on their hands (literally or through something like corporate manslaughter) no matter who they are all the way to the classic Leon "No women, no children" hitters at the other end of the scale. More often than not in fiction you'll have either the ex-assassin or the assassin with certain standards since it allows them to still be cool and an anti-hero whilst also being slightly more sympathetic than the "Just give me the money and I'll shoot whoever you want in the face" kind. Looking through hyzmarca's list about half of those people either had certain scruples or were shown to the audience only killing 'bad' guys.

[Morrigana]

There may also be the mess value. I mean, let's face it, most of these wetwork jobs are not likely going to be the type where you're reaching out and touching someone with a sniper rifle. They have their own in-house snipers for that kind of thing in a lot of cases. Most of these jobs are probably going to be messy, brutal, and sometimes involve performing acts on a living person that you usually would only see in a horror movie.

Honestly, how many people, even in the megacorps, do you think honestly keep in-house psychopaths who aren't cyberzombies? They're most likely going to contract that out, in part since it makes monetary sense not to keep people that sadistic around your ordinary employees and possibly lose a few to 'accidents' because of it. Most likely, the kind of job the typical runner is likely to get for wetwork is probably going to be the kind where they kidnap some poor schmuck and then literally torture him to death. Then they return to the Johnson, get paid, and get left in an unsuspecting society while the Johnson returns to the security of a corp building and a LOT of armed guards. And no matter how you look at it, it's probably not going to be pleasant to watch.

[The Jake]

First off, most infantry who have been there won't tell you that they have X kills because they can't really confirm it because there tends to be 8-11 other blokes all firing up the same general area with rapid-fire weapons and/or explosives.

Correct. That's the difference between confirmed kills and unconfirmed kills, and why I specifically said the former.

Just an FYI, some guys do talk a bit about it if you ask them. Particular when they're in the 60s, too old and too grumpy to give a shit if you believe them or not.

In the case of snipers, it's done as a type of macho competition as they see themselves as big game hunters hunting the most dangerous game on earth. Snipers also will tend to distance themselves from their actions by telling themselves that they are killing this person so they don't kill one of their own compatriots later.

The "hard professional" is much more common in the UK and it's former colonies until you hit the elite units in most other places like the US. They act like it doesn't affect them. They will say that it doesn't affect them. They will talk about killing in the most bland terms without emotion to demonstrate that it doesn't affect them. They will also be just a screwed up with flashbacks, lost sleep from nightmares, and general emotional unavailability as Joe Blow grunt by the killing that they have done. Snipers generally get it worse because they get a really good look at almost everyone they kill.

I was just talking about guys I knew who were ex-military who had seen front line combat, not snipers. I don't know any snipers specifically. Closest thing I know of are good marksmen who didn't have to kill anyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The reason I know about the nightmares is because I used to live with this guy and I used to hear him in his sleep and I asked his family about it.

- J.

[Backgammon]

I know one guy who had over 12 (confirmed) kills and I can tell you for a fact he had no compunction about picking up a .38 and walking outside to shoot someone if he thought they were going to burgle his house.

If I walked up to your friend and said "Here's [x amount]$, go and kill that guy over there", would he do it?

[Red_Cap]

Point the First: One of my most favorite SR characters ever was a sniper adept whose upbringing was basically so cruel that he had very little (if any) conscience left. He actually preferred wetwork because it meant only one bullet; other runs tended to burn through ammo thanks to the inordinately large guard forces that particular GM liked to throw at us. Was he a murdering psychopath? Nope. He simply had no compunction against killing so long as there was a point behind it.

Point the Second: I am a soldier. I'm not a sniper, I'm not in special operations (what you'll sometimes hear called "the small army" or being an "operator"); Hell, I'm not even a grunt. I'm an Intelligence guy, which means that even after two Iraq tours, I have never fired my weapon in anger. But I have been ready to kill. I'm had mortars and rockets dropped on my head, an IED hit the HMMWV less than fifty feet in front of mine, and I got to pull guard on freshly captured insurgents on numerous occassions. There's something about having your life put in danger that simply makes your average person angry. When you're angry, your normal emotions and rationalities are dumbed down because of the fight-or-flight response; I'm sure I'm not the only one who has told a friend or family member something mean and nasty during an argument because you were pissed at the person. Same effect, different scenario: your "I don't have to kill anyone, I'm just driving" mindset becomes "You dirty motherfucker, you just killed my friend and burned down a humvee! You're dead, bitch!" (although, as an aside, we never did catch that particularly bastard so far as we know). My point here is that everyone is capable of killing, even if they don't think they are. All it takes is strong emotions -- anger, revenge, protecting someone or something you love, etc; everyone has a trigger that will make them cross that line.

But adding to the sniper/grunt/bomber analogy, how's this to muddy the water? As an Intel guy, it's my job to pick the targets. I'm the one who says, "Go here. This is Terrorist X. He'll be there from this time to this time, he travels with X number of guards, and he always goes armed. As usual, alive is better than dead." I'm not doing any sort of trigger-pulling. If I'm lucky, I get to watch the raid real-time on a UAV video feed; if not, I can always listen to the tactical chatter on the platoon radio net. If Terrorist X resists, he'll probably die from multiple gunshot wounds. If you think about, aren't I even MORE responsible than the grunt who rolled out there in a humvee or MRAP -- I'm the one who directed the one operation, after all. I'm the one who said, "Dead or alive, either is good."

Discuss.

[AllTheNothing]

Point the First: One of my most favorite SR characters ever was a sniper adept whose upbringing was basically so cruel that he had very little (if any) conscience left. He actually preferred wetwork because it meant only one bullet; other runs tended to burn through ammo thanks to the inordinately large guard forces that particular GM liked to throw at us. Was he a murdering psychopath? Nope. He simply had no compunction against killing so long as there was a point behind it.

Point the Second: I am a soldier. I'm not a sniper, I'm not in special operations (what you'll sometimes hear called "the small army" or being an "operator"); Hell, I'm not even a grunt. I'm an Intelligence guy, which means that even after two Iraq tours, I have never fired my weapon in anger. But I have been ready to kill. I'm had mortars and rockets dropped on my head, an IED hit the HMMWV less than fifty feet in front of mine, and I got to pull guard on freshly captured insurgents on numerous occassions. There's something about having your life put in danger that simply makes your average person angry. When you're angry, your normal emotions and rationalities are dumbed down because of the fight-or-flight response; I'm sure I'm not the only one who has told a friend or family member something mean and nasty during an argument because you were pissed at the person. Same effect, different scenario: your "I don't have to kill anyone, I'm just driving" mindset becomes "You dirty motherfucker, you just killed my friend and burned down a humvee! You're dead, bitch!" (although, as an aside, we never did catch that particularly bastard so far as we know). My point here is that everyone is capable of killing, even if they don't think they are. All it takes is strong emotions -- anger, revenge, protecting someone or something you love, etc; everyone has a trigger that will make them cross that line.

But adding to the sniper/grunt/bomber analogy, how's this to muddy the water? As an Intel guy, it's my job to pick the targets. I'm the one who says, "Go here. This is Terrorist X. He'll be there from this time to this time, he travels with X number of guards, and he always goes armed. As usual, alive is better than dead." I'm not doing any sort of trigger-pulling. If I'm lucky, I get to watch the raid real-time on a UAV video feed; if not, I can always listen to the tactical chatter on the platoon radio net. If Terrorist X resists, he'll probably die from multiple gunshot wounds. If you think about, aren't I even MORE responsible than the grunt who rolled out there in a humvee or MRAP -- I'm the one who directed the one operation, after all. I'm the one who said, "Dead or alive, either is good."

Discuss.

Wow man I'm so happy to not being in your position.
For the responsability part of the thing I think that wars are dirty things, they don't break just for the actions of a single person nor are resolved in the same manner; responsabilities vary from being the ones who chose to start them (usualy the ones that do don't fight them, they just profict from them), to not trying to prevent it, to being sent in front line and having to harm other people lives in order to keep your own. Morals are a subjective and often quite elastic matter so defining responsabilities is often an infinite loop of "I was forced by [insert responsible/reason] into doing it", at best we can we can tell that those that proficted from war are moraly responsible for proficting of other people misfortunes (and maybe call them vultures or jackals) but unless you can prove that they played an active role into setting the war off you can't do anything about them (even though they are probably the greatest responsibles); for sure we can tell who the victimes are, the civilians whos lives are devastated by war.

P.S.
With this post I'm not trying to imply that you are hipocrit or anything, I think you entered in the army for much different reasons than "I want to fight a war" and you found yourself having to abide to the agreedment taken with the State or suffer the consequences, I think that you are just trying to cope with the reality of life (if there are responsibles for the Iraq war, they are the one that chose to start the war, conducting it in a disastrous way, for reasons that have nothing to do with security).

[InfinityzeN]

Current soldier with three tours in Iraq.

The nightmares... Check. Severe family problems... Check. Seeing nothing wrong with plugging a hostile... Check.

I actually have trouble in really crowded areas like malls and sporting events, along with completely quitting drinking. My non-military friends have actually noticed lots of changes in me. For one thing, I don't like standing around in the open, or with people behind me. I'm always watching everyone's hands in my area. Whenever we go to a restraint now, they actually pick a table near a wall without me having to tell them to.

Also, most of us won't talk about what really happen unless we are with others who went through something like we did. Not just snipers get confirmed kills ether. Any gunner on a vehicle will end up with several pretty damn fast.

P.S.
I'm a brain, working with the sneaky sneak guys.