ATTN WRITERS: Why have no big NPCs died?, Apart from Dunkie and Aneki that is... Options

[The Jake]

Shadowrun has sofar spanned from 2050 to 2070 and onwards.

We have so many well known, well established NPCs which never seem to die. I can think of only two major NPCs of the top of my head that have: Inazo Aneki and Dunkelzahn.

Right now, we have Richard Villiers, Damien Knight and Fastjack who are human and MUST be around their 70s. Even with their extensive knowledge and backgrounds, runners like Smiling Bandit or professionals like KAM *must* be getting on. Scarier still is the fact that Man-Of-Many-Names is STILL posting and he seemed ancient to me back when I first read about him in Universal Brotherhood. At least Michael Sutherland moved on to become Director of Matrix Security for Wuxing. That was an interesting development (even though it doesn't fit his character at all).

Even with some of these people being able to afford Leonization out the yin-yang, I presume there must be limitations (that have never been discussed in Augmentation...) and not all of them can afford it. Sure runners have dropped in and out of the scene over the years but it's not the same as someone actually buying the farm. Of all the runners that could probably afford Leonization, the only one I can think of who could afford it regularly would be Fastjack.

What are the real limitations of human age in Shadowrun? Some of these people HAVE to be getting on and some of them have to either be looking to retire or die from natural causes (not just assassination or self-sacrifice like Dunkie). Is this ever going to be explored in future supplements? I'd like to see a 2070 equivalent of Prime Runners or something but I realise that this product would be of limited value to some groups.

Cheers,

- J.

[TheOOB]

Your forgot captain chaos.

Anyways, I think you overestimate the effects of aging in the sixth world. Truth is, as long as you don't get any incurable diseases and you are reasonably healthy(and have access to good medical technology), there is no reason you can't live past 100 and still be somewhat active(you won't be running however). Besides leonization returns someone to the prime of their life(25 if I'm not mistaken), assuming you get the treatment at age 70, you are going to be 115 before you reach the physical age of 70 again, not to shabby. With cutting edge genetics and med tec, along with a strong body, a human might even be able to hit 200 years, which means some of these old guard characters have quite some time before surrendering to father time.

Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases), then that means that all the characters are younger then 72 years, hell, most the prominate runners in 2050 would be between 40 and 50 years old. Thats getting on in the years but still young enough to be plenty active and dangerous with good health and good med tec.

[The Jake]

Your forgot captain chaos.

Anyways, I think you overestimate the effects of aging in the sixth world. Truth is, as long as you don't get any incurable diseases and you are reasonably healthy(and have access to good medical technology), there is no reason you can't live past 100 and still be somewhat active(you won't be running however). Besides leonization returns someone to the prime of their life(25 if I'm not mistaken), assuming you get the treatment at age 70, you are going to be 115 before you reach the physical age of 70 again, not to shabby. With cutting edge genetics and med tec, along with a strong body, a human might even be able to hit 200 years, which means some of these old guard characters have quite some time before surrendering to father time.

Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases), then that means that all the characters are younger then 72 years, hell, most the prominate runners in 2050 would be between 40 and 50 years old. Thats getting on in the years but still young enough to be plenty active and dangerous with good health and good med tec.

No I didn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Could you truly call Cpt. Chaos dead? Even if you do, he wasn't around from the 1st Edition IIRC (was in 2nd edition - earliest book I can remember with him in it was FoF). Fastjack was (as was Villiers, Aneki, etc).

Granted genetic engineering (not even Leonization) can obviously extend someone's lifespan but the fact that this wasn't touched on in Augmentation really leaves us to guess the limitations. Back when Shadowtech was released Leonization was new and was so ridiculuously expensive that you'd almost never encounter it. Now there are so many cheaper alternatives to reduce/slow down/prevent aging that we really have to stop and ask "what are the limits?".

Taking medicine out of the picture, surely there are stories of runners who died of old age. Orks in particular have a VERY short lifespan and I'm sure that at least a few ork runners would have succumbed to old age. What about voluntary retirement? Chromed Accountant hinted at having enough to retire (I distinctly remember one book he said he had enough for a tropical island). He's been around since Corporate Shadowfiles. What about involuntary retirement? Runs gone wrong? Assassinations? Hunted? Things from Other Planes™?

What about the Immortal Elves? We know Lofwyr got to Leonardo but what happened since? Was he killed? We know for a fact Lofwyr destroyed his lab but what happened to the man? Will this be touched on in later books?

I think you get my point. Sooner or later these people will be retiring - whether they want to or not. My question is, will this be touched on in later supplements? Everyone feels the passage of time sooner or later. Even immortals aren't immune to it - that much we all know for certain.

- J.

[Demonseed Elite]

Well, to be completely honest, most of the time these characters aren't killed because the writers like them and because they make great plot devices. When they are killed, it's because their death is either the catalyst for a great story (Dunkelzahn) or the conclusion of one (Inazo Aneki). Sure, they could just die for no story reason whatsoever, but writers usually regret doing that.

Besides, if you kill off legendary characters left and right, they don't become legendary. Knight, Villiers, Fastjack, part of their legend is that they've been around in Shadowrun so long.

[Blacken]

Taking medicine out of the picture, surely there are stories of runners who died of old age. Orks in particular have a VERY short lifespan and I'm sure that at least a few ork runners would have succumbed to old age.

I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.

[Fortune]

Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases)

I think Dodger is a little older than Fastjack.

Others that have kicked the bucket include Glasgian Oakforest, Matador, and Hatchetman.

Oh, and Capt. Chaos has most definitely been around since the first edition.

[Malachi]

I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.

No, Ork is correct. They have a life expectancy around 40-60 years.

[Arcblood]

First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

Two: from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain. Over time it will slowly shut down the production of new cells. Given the games answer that immortality is in the genes of elves. All these prime names will be around for another 50 years atleast and Fastjack will be a monster in the net until his brain goes to mush. FastJack like a few of my personal super npc's has the net by the balls cause they know the base codes it was built on by instinct.

Three: howmany of these prime players are really natural humans and not drakes, erlders. spirits or dragons

[Stahlseele]

Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death . .

addendum: do you WANT them to die?
if so, better try to contact one of the autors to write in a contract on a bounty on their heads . .

[MYST1C]

First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

It's one of the old-but-unanswered questions:

• Do orks have a low life expectancy because most orks live in poor conditions, with high infant mortality and poor medical facilities? (Environmental/social cause)
• Do orks have a low life expectancy because they actually age faster than other (meta)humans, meaning an ork aged 35-40 resembles a human aged 70? (Genetic cause)

Throughout the editions there's never been a definitive answer (AFAIK) but fluff indicates the latter.
Plus, in SR's "sister" game, Earthdawn, orks also have a shorter lifespan than other namegivers. Their very culture is based on getting famous to make one's name immortal as life is so short...

[Drogos]

I thought the Fluff also had Orks maturing faster. Their gestation period was also less than 9 mos. I've always been of the mind that they died younger due to a combination of the two factors of environment and genetics.

[Method]

from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain.

Huh? What kind of genetics experience is that? I'm pretty sure that heart disease is still the big numero uno when it comes to mortality.

[The Jake]

Well, to be completely honest, most of the time these characters aren't killed because the writers like them and because they make great plot devices. When they are killed, it's because their death is either the catalyst for a great story (Dunkelzahn) or the conclusion of one (Inazo Aneki). Sure, they could just die for no story reason whatsoever, but writers usually regret doing that.

Besides, if you kill off legendary characters left and right, they don't become legendary. Knight, Villiers, Fastjack, part of their legend is that they've been around in Shadowrun so long.

As well it should be. Dunkelzahn's death was a perfect example.

And to be fair, his death was a once in a lifetime event - otherwise it ceases to be special.

But the fact remains that even legends die.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that while these characters represent a great deus ex machina, for the most part at least they are not immortal, they do have plans to stop doing what they do at some stage and more needs to be done to recognise that rather than treat them as an immortal plot device that can be used/reused endlessly for the passage of time.

I read Synner said somewhere that she's planning on having the timeline advance each year. So does that mean we'll hit 2080 one day and Fastjack will still be around? Come on man...

Having said that, tell me the death or retirement of Fastjack wouldn't be on similar par to the death of The Big D? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death . .

addendum: do you WANT them to die?
if so, better try to contact one of the autors to write in a contract on a bounty on their heads . .

It's not that I want them to die per se. Its that I just don't think enough has been done to acknowledge the passage of time in game.

Having said that, elves I'm willing to cut some slack for given their longevity.

I think Dodger is a little older than Fastjack.

Others that have kicked the bucket include Glasgian Oakforest, Matador, and Hatchetman.

Oh, and Capt. Chaos has most definitely been around since the first edition.

News to me. Of those on the list I've never heard of them dying. They just seemed to disappear. Was their deaths covered in a book I'm not aware of?

- J.

[Fortune]

I read Synner said somewhere that she's ...

Pssst. Synner's a guy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

News to me. Of those on the list I've never heard of them dying. They just seemed to disappear. Was their deaths covered in a book I'm not aware of?

Al responses are to be considered to include the phrase 'If I recall correctly.

Glasgian was covered in SoNA.
Matador was dealt with in Target: Wastelands or one of the SotA books (I lean toward the latter).
Hatchetman is a given, and there are several references to his passing, but no actual details. Cyberzombies in the 2050's measured their lifespan in weeks.

Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death .

Why shouldn't Dodger count? He isn't an Immortal Elf, just a Spike Baby. The point I responded to did not concern extended potential lifespans, but age since birth (oldest non-Immortal named character). Elves have no special advantage in this regard.

[The Jake]

Pssst. Synner's a guy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sorry. That WAS actually a typo.

Al responses are to be considered to include the phrase 'If I recall correctly.

Glasgian was covered in SoNA.
Matador was dealt with in Target: Wastelands or one of the SotA books (I lean toward the latter).
Hatchetman is a given, and there are several references to his passing, but no actual details. Cyberzombies in the 2050's measured their lifespan in weeks.

Will search SoNA and Wastelands. How did Matador die?
Hatchman I know became a cyberzombie. I don't think it was measured in "weeks" (remember the 'zombie in the Dragonheart trilogy? That reminds me - imagine how tough a free spirit using Hidden Life on a CYBERZOMBIE would be!! *shudder*). Augmentation all but states now that a cyberzombie is effectively immortal so long as they don't forget and keep undergoing their maintenance. So POTENTIALLY Hatchman could be immortal - unless it's directly been stated elsewhere he died.

Why shouldn't Dodger count? He isn't an Immortal Elf, just a Spike Baby. The point I responded to did not concern extended potential lifespans, but age since birth (oldest non-Immortal named character). Elves have no special advantage in this regard.

Elves have a lifespan of around 120 years IIRC. This would put Dodger around or approaching middle age, elven by elven standards as a spike baby.

- J.

[Method]

Fatima gets got in Ghost Cartels. She may not be a long standing legend, but she is some author's character...

Edit: oh and the blurb about Matador is on page 54 of SOTA:63. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit2: and Don Bigio gets whacked in Runner's Havens...

[Method]

Screw it, Ill just add another post....

The other thing you need to consider is that when you introduce epic characters into your game world you don't know how people are going to integrate them into their individual campaigns. There are groups out there who like to keep things close to the canon, and if you go killing off NPCs that are central to their campaigns you are going to piss off a bunch of people. Not to imply that SR players like to bitch or anything... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

So if you want some people dead in your game, kill 'em yourself.

(NOTE TO DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: The above comments are in reference to a table top roleplaying game only...) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Hagga]

First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

Two: from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain. Over time it will slowly shut down the production of new cells. Given the games answer that immortality is in the genes of elves. All these prime names will be around for another 50 years atleast and Fastjack will be a monster in the net until his brain goes to mush. FastJack like a few of my personal super npc's has the net by the balls cause they know the base codes it was built on by instinct.

Three: howmany of these prime players are really natural humans and not drakes, erlders. spirits or dragons

Those few "prime players" who are just regular (meta)humans are possibly the ones you most need to watch for. Someone who does not have the "infinite potential" of magic but is still nasty enough to put dints into the big bad immortal's plans is someone to watch out for and fear.

Or possibly just hand them the "Granite testicles" award.

[Warlordtheft]

I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.

Yeah, and isn't the for orc prince of tir now the President. He's gotta be pushing close to 70.

[Fortune]

How did Matador die?

Sniper round to the head.

Hatchman I know became a cyberzombie. I don't think it was measured in "weeks" (remember the 'zombie in the Dragonheart trilogy? That reminds me - imagine how tough a free spirit using Hidden Life on a CYBERZOMBIE would be!! *shudder*). Augmentation all but states now that a cyberzombie is effectively immortal so long as they don't forget and keep undergoing their maintenance. So POTENTIALLY Hatchman could be immortal - unless it's directly been stated elsewhere he died.

There's a big ass difference between Cyberzombies in the 2070s and their prototypes back in the 2050s. Even Burnout was quite a bit later than the Hatchetman incident. As I said though, there have been a couple of book references to his passing over the years.

Elves have a lifespan of around 120 years IIRC. This would put Dodger around or approaching middle age, elven by elven standards as a spike baby.

Still immaterial. Potential lifespan has no effect on who is actually the oldest non-immortal canon character.

Fatima gets got in Ghost Cartels.

I was going to add her, but couldn't think of her name. I almost wrote 'fanatic arabian ork chick' but figured I would have to explain myself.

[JonathanC]

I thought the Fluff also had Orks maturing faster. Their gestation period was also less than 9 mos. I've always been of the mind that they died younger due to a combination of the two factors of environment and genetics.

That was the 3rd ed fluff...it's been removed from 4th ed fluff, and I think everytime this gets brought up we all end up agreeing to disagree.

Personally, I think the idea of 10 year old orks trying to pick up chicks and knock them up is a little silly, and a 30 year old ork with a walker is kind of retarded. Dying young is one thing, aging faster is something else. Plus, the setting seems to describe metas, particularly orks, living in some really awful urban conditions, and when you add in drug/BTL use, you'd get a low enough lifespan as it is. Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide). So I naturally assumed it was due to living conditions.

[Blacken]

Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide).

See, that's what would strike me as being very much backwards. Trolls don't live in better conditions than orks, it seems, and they also have the added downside of being considerably larger (which would, I would think, cause more incidence of certain failure-related deaths; it would seem odd to me for heart musculature, for example, to scale perfectly).

[Hagga]

Elves can expect to see 400 years - the ones who were born at the Awakening, anyway. The last 100 years is spent going downhill. 120-125 is a figure released by TT (pre revolution) scientists to make the poor mud eating scumsucking orks feel better.

[Morphius]

Don't forget Lucien Cross. He may not have been as big as Damien Knight, but he still kicked it during the Second Crash.

[The Jake]

That was the 3rd ed fluff...it's been removed from 4th ed fluff, and I think everytime this gets brought up we all end up agreeing to disagree.

Personally, I think the idea of 10 year old orks trying to pick up chicks and knock them up is a little silly, and a 30 year old ork with a walker is kind of retarded. Dying young is one thing, aging faster is something else. Plus, the setting seems to describe metas, particularly orks, living in some really awful urban conditions, and when you add in drug/BTL use, you'd get a low enough lifespan as it is. Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide). So I naturally assumed it was due to living conditions.

Sorry but given the number of official novels that touch on the ork lifespan being shorter than any other metahuman race, I think we are well past their official canon lifespan being term as "fluff". YMMV however.

- J.