Too hard vs. too soft GMs, Where to draw the line... Options

[Shev]

I was reading the CLUE files in the archive (wiping tears of laughter from my eyes) when I came across something that sobered me a bit. A PC was throwing a grappling hook onto the roof. They got it onto the roof, but since the character had not specifically said that they had tied the rope onto the hook, they just threw it up there without a line.

As someone who both GMs and plays, I regard this as not cool.

To me, a shadowrun is supposed to emulate a good action book/movie. Lots of action, cool moves pulled off (laughs and groans when they don't), stuff like that.

When a GM pulls something like the above scenario out of their hat, it just totally ruins the fun. I mean, it isn't even realistic. Unless the character in question has an I attribute of 2 or less, they're going to know they need a rope attached to that hook before they throw it.

However, sometimes a GM needs to be tough. In another CLUE case file, the characters forgot to bring parachutes when they were going to crash a plane into a stadium. Letting them get off after that kind of stupidity (and bloodthirstiness besides, this was to kill one suit) would make things easy and thus boring.

Where can we draw the line?

[Saintgrimm]

I know how you feel. It's like games that have a search skill. A GM asks "Where do you search? Where exactly?" or "How do you go about disarming the trap?" for any skill like that. How the hell do I know? I might be able to guess, but my Char is the expert at it. Just because my Character has a 8 in Biotech doesn't mean I know how the pancreas failing to function will influence certain effects on the heart. Same with other things.

[Grinzwilly]

Hm...this is a difficult question indeed, but one that I've developed somewhat of a philosophy about.

As a GM, it's your job to make the game fun. If your players aren't having fun, then you're not doing your job. No matter what...even if your players are stupid, bad people. However, it's also important that you be having fun. It all starts at the beginning.

When you begin a campaign, you must assess your style as a GM. Are you the kind of GM that has fun by screwing your players? If so, then your first job as GM is to find players that like getting screwed by their GM. Unless you can actually find enough players who get off on this sort of thing, you shouldn't be GMing in the first place, because your players aren't gonna have any fun.

If you actually can find that many masochistic players, have fun screwing them. I'm sure they will have fun too.

Likewise, if you want to run a realistic game or a power game, make sure to invite players that will enjoy that style of play. Let your players know what kind of game you run, so that they won't join or will join according to their preference. Then, you have justification for enforcing your style of play later.

Otherwise, employ common sense in what your players say to you, and be sure to give them all the relevant information. You can't possibly describe all the variables in a given situation, so stick to the details that the character might find relevant.

In the example above, it would actually have been the GM's fault for not describing the rope and grappling hook properly to the player (i.e. You take out your grappling hook and rope. They're not tied together). Since the character was taking out the grappling hook in order to toss it up on the roof, it would be relevant that the two aren't tied together. The GM, as the "reality filter" between player and character, should note this.

Employ the Golden Rule - would you be having fun if your GM did what you're about to do?

[Shev]

Well put, Grinzwilly. The hard part is when you have a mix of players (which is usually the case) who favor different styles of play. My own solution (if a character is about to make a bonehead move, like leaving parachutes behind) is to simply make a roll on the characters Intelligence, with a TN representing how obvious the mistake is. Flaws and Edges such as Abesnt-minded or Common Sense impose modifers on this base TN. This way, if they player doesn't pick up on his/her mistake, the "subconcious" of the character has a chance of bringing it to the attention of the player.

[kevyn668]

I like the idea of this thread. I recently tried my hand at GMing...with mixed results. The players liked what we were doing but I think it was because we're all friends and hve been PRGing for years.

That said, I often have to "rekindle" thier desire to play SR. Interest has fizzeled once already, which I accept only 90% of the responsibility for. The main complaits were

the Novacoke addicted Decker: "I don't get enough Matrix time"
The other players: "you get too much as it is"
I'm not good w/ the Matrix rules but I figured betweent the two us we could manage. Unfortunately, he doesn't like to do his homework so its like I have play Teacher too "did you do your reading?"
I've since asked him to make a different character.

and "What do you mean there are penalties for using Novacoke?"
He wanted a drug addicted character, so I let him have one

AND "Why did you shot me? I only have a pistol"
Me: "You just killed the Gang Boss" I was actully planning on the gang turning tail after that round b/c thier boss got cacked but there was one ganger left that had an action so I figured it was like a "Oh my God! You killed Kenny!! You bastards!!" sort of situation.

The GunBunny: "Every time we kill someone you send the cops after us"
Me: "You shot the StufferShack girl"

I try to throw alot of combat at them b/c that whats they seem to like the best. Everytime i try to get into char development, it gets derailed.

The Sam is actually the best roleplayer. He said he didnt want any contacts at Char Gen. And consistanly is antisocial.

Am I handling this wrong?

I'm the only one that has books but I've made copies of the combat section for them and offered to loan them out at any time but the only one that takes me up on that offer is the decker and he never bothered to read up on his chosen field. It kinda pissed me off.

[leemur]

CLUE files?

[toturi]

[Shev]

kevyn668, I don't think you're doing anything wrong, per se. The matrix issue is really a challenge. The best solution I've heard of is have an "assistant" GM to handle matrix while you handle the real world. My gaming group has no decker PC's, so we just hire out to get our info. You were right to impose penalties on the addict, that's the whole point. It's a weak spot, and if he didn't realize that, you aren't to blame. As for the gang boss, I doubt many gangs would have turn tail just because their leader died (unless they were a pack of cowards, which is possible), you were going fairly easy on them tohave only one open fire. (Make them use those Social Skills! They should have an alternative to shooting everything that moves. Well, in most cases at least ;) )

Out of curiosity, why did they shoot the stuffershack girl? Was she a threat to them? Or did they just not like her? If it was the latter, then you may have a group who just don't like anything but killing randomly, which is very easy to GM for: throw them all in jail, or kill them. Going easy is one thing, but they need to learn that combat isn't the sole point of the game, and senseless murdering will have the same consequences in 2061 as it does now.

[Fresno Bob]

Unless they're deep in a Z-Zone.

[Shev]

True enough, but you don't find many stuffer shacks in Z-zones :)

[Fresno Bob]

Touche.

[BumsofTacoma]

Jeez Kevyn, sounds like your problem is your payers not you.

What you described is creepily like my group when we started.

Although, the drug addict ork decker in my game tried to log onin an internet cafe and do some bad things......in belvue......when I had told him the cops were sitting 5 feet away.........

Yes what he was doing was obviosly wrong to the clerk, the cops, and the team that snuck out while the cops grabbed him.

(I wont go into anymore details than that)

Okay. Some players, never learn that violence isn't always the answer. Maybe they will get more clever with the violence but thats all. and then some players when you say "Hay, this aint all wet work, not all shadowrunners are gunnbunny mass murderers etc etc." will actually listen to you and reform....or find another group.

Anyway. Just try to talk to your players see what they want to do, if its sensless killing and the like, and thats something you dont dig, then try to look for another group if possible.

Hell I cant even find a new group, I have to drive 300 miles to my hometown to play with my old crew. alhthough i am slowly forming a new group. very very slowly.

bah, i'll edit this when im not so tired

[Austere Emancipa...]

It's usually like that with a new group. It takes time for the players to get a clue, to understand the Shadowrunning mindset, all that. How much of SR have you played altogether? Have your other RPGs been mainly of the D&D Dungeon Hack style?

Had I started SR with my group before I had run a few of the more realistic and gritty medieval fantasy RPGs with them, they would certainly have acted just like that. But now they were used to how a world is supposed to work, and how I make it work, so there weren't as many problems.

Stay patient, they might "get it" after a while. If not, you can always change the Shadowrun world into one of full-fledged urban warfare, with most laws right out the window, and the PCs some sort of supervillains. Or, better yet, play some other game with them, and find another group to play SR with.

[Moirdryd]

cool thread but Kevyn has perked my interest on the matters on new players to Shadowrun, both RPing newbies and old timers making the shift to the Shadows.
Gonna post up a new thread to have a hack at this one.

[Glyph]

I don't think it's a matter of too hard vs. too soft. It's a matter of remembering that the characters might know things the players don't, while still having realistic consequences for acts of general stupidity. In other words, if the rigger is about to do something that is almost certain to result in his fiery death, remember that the character is a professional driver, and would know that the stunt he is contemplating is almost impossible. So let the player know that, too. If he does it anyways, then let the dice fall where they may.

Punish random violence and moronic actions with realistic consequences, but be sure to give the players enough information, and keep the specific characters in mind when you do so. A streetwise sammie walking down the street might know that if there are two gangers hanging out in front of the bar, there are probably seven or eight more inside. An ex-company man, though, would just see two street punks, and might not even recognize that they are wearing "colors".

Avoid being "too hard" by giving the players enough clues and descriptions. Avoid being "too soft" by letting bad things happen (not making bad things happen, just letting logical consequences play out) when they ignore the clues or their professional judgement to do something dumb anyway.

[Shev]

*nod* I think you put it best, Glyph. Remember that that players don't know everything their characters do, and what is common sense to a runner who grew up on the streets of the Sixth World is not common to most (if any) players.

[kevyn668]

Cool, thanks everyone!

I tend to take it a little easier than I should but they know I have the "kid gloves on". These are their first characters and I want them to make it through at least a few shadowruns. I know its not the best approach but its the best one I have. They're just feeling out kind of chars they like.

We have a de-briefing period at the end of our sessions.

Me: "what did we learn this time?"
Them: [thows dice at gunbunny] "Don't shoot the StufferShack girl!"
Sam: "having a wound SUCKS so ALWAYS get cover"
Me: *beams*

He shot her because she wouldn't tell him were her boyfriend (the gang Boss) was. So he "sent a message". All in all, it wasn't just "wontan killing" but they did shoot her in broad daylight in downtown Seattle. And didn't take the sec tape. I didn't really have much choice...

With the gang thing: they were already in a firefight.

With the Matrix and an Assistant GM: I don't have enough bodies as it is...there's a total of 4 of us. Once we had 5. Thats counts me.

I sort of bullied them into hiring a NPC mage (they didn't have one of thier own). That way I can say things like "Michael doesn't think thats a good idea" and "Michael thinks you should do more research"....Instead of "You don't think thats a good idea". But I have to balance that so they don't use him as a crutch. Basically I only use him if I think it would be obvious to a runner that something is a good idea or bad. He never suggests a plan of action. Unless its "how to deal w/ the enemy mage".

Shoot him. ;)

By bullying I mean, I zapped 'em with a magician until they got one of thier own...

[Tanka]

You mean somebody doesn't want to play a mage that can get all those sexy Initiations and Metamagics?! Are they crazy?! :eek:

Offer a small "reward" for the first person to make a good mage PC. Then give the rest who tried a smaller, yet appropriate, reward for their current PCs.

[kevyn668]

Like I said, we used to play That Other Game. Everyone really likes guns. And shooting people. :)

[Tanka]

Then send something after them that can't be hurt by guns, but is easily taken down by magic. *coughvampirecoughcough*

[mfb]

one of the best tools for harder/softer gm'ing are the dice pools. if your PCs are getting their tails whupped, start having the NPCs allocate to many cp dice to dodging; have the NPC mages allocate more dice to drain than they really need. if your PCs are walking all over the oppo, then squeeze every ounce out of every die you get get your grubby paws on.

[Fortune]

[Tanka]

[Fortune]

That doesn't answer my question. Why spoil the players' fun when the system is new to them, and they want to play a certain way for a while? Why not just let them play with mundanes and guns until such time as they feel like moving on?

[Tanka]