Ghoul Claws & Immunity to Normal Weapons, A quick Consensus Options

[Caadium]

I'm just looking for a simple consensus. Since ghouls are dual-natured, would there claws work against things with Immunity to Normal Weapons, like spirits?

[Glyph]

A ghoul's dual nature means that it has the option of attacking the spirit astrally, using Willpower plus astral combat, thus bypassing the immunity to normal weapons. Unlike killing hands or a weapon focus, though, the ghoul's claws have no special ability to bypass immunity to normal weapons on the physical plane.

[Jaid]

A ghoul's dual nature means that it has the option of attacking the spirit astrally, using Willpower plus astral combat, thus bypassing the immunity to normal weapons. Unlike killing hands or a weapon focus, though, the ghoul's claws have no special ability to bypass immunity to normal weapons on the physical plane.

if you want to get technical about it (by which i mean, deliberately interpreting the rules in a manner which is pretty clearly not intended), natural weapon is a critter power, and critter powers bypass immunity to normal weapons.

that being said, as far as how i think it was intended to work, i would agree with glyph...

[Stahlseele]

can someone tell me where i get the idea that dual natured would use their usual physical attributes to hurt things on the astral? <.<
i can't for the life of me, figure that one out -.-

[darthmord]

They use their normal stats on the astral rather than their mental stats for physical due to dual nature. This however does NOT apply if they are using astral projection.

[Stahlseele]

but then they are not dual natured anymore. then they are wholly astral beings . .
if there's a ghost on the astral plane, not dual-natured only present in astral space.
and the ghoul being dual natured and not projecting . . does the ghoul attack with his usual unarmed combat damage?
including the claws bonus?

[DMFubar]

Not to derail the original posting, but can someone give me a reference page for Spirits having Immunity to Normal Weapons. I've seen it before (I think), but a player asked me about it and I could not find it anywhere. Thanks.

[Dragnar]

Page 177 BBB under "Spirit Combat", for example. Dunno if it's mentioned anywhere else.

[Malachi]

Not to derail the original posting, but can someone give me a reference page for Spirits having Immunity to Normal Weapons. I've seen it before (I think), but a player asked me about it and I could not find it anywhere. Thanks.

It's a bit of a trail of bread crumbs, actually. Spirits have the Materialization power and Materialization states that: "Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons."

[DMFubar]

Thanks, it hasn't been much of a problem, yet. But one of my players just made up a spirit summoner for his secondary characters (to make sure that we have the right people for the right jobs, each player has two characters, and gets to choose which he wants to send to the meets at their Fixers urging).

[Stahlseele]

just watch out for combinations of dwarves/their metatypes with ghouls as adepts . .

[Fortune]

can someone tell me where i get the idea that dual natured would use their usual physical attributes to hurt things on the astral? <.<
i can't for the life of me, figure that one out -.-

From the SR4 FAQ ...

Do dual-natured characters/critters (including assensing characters) use their Physical or astral attributes when fighting an astral opponent?

Dual-natured characters are limited by their physical bodies. In astral combat, they move at meat body speeds (use regular physical Initiative) and use their Physical attributes for any tests. They engage astral opponents, however, using Astral Combat skill (+ Willpower).

[Stahlseele]

so, if you have more ini-passes than the purely astral thing, you can, indeed, beat up any spirit O.o
does the claw damage figure into the unarmed damage too?
now i really wanna make a dwarf(variant) ghoul adept for that single purpose again . .
his motivation?
"Look at me! i am a frigging walking corpse! i don't care if other people call it a sickness! i say they did not let me into their little club of deceased/spirits! i'm gonna beat them up untill they let me in damn it!"

[Glyph]

With a total bonus of +3 to Willpower, a dwarven ghoul would be pretty good at it, too, although the main weakness of being dual-natured is that a purely astral opponent can float 30 feet above you and lob manabolts at you all day.

can someone tell me where i get the idea that dual natured would use their usual physical attributes to hurt things on the astral? <.<
i can't for the life of me, figure that one out -.-

You were probably remembering the SR3 rules, because in SR3 you did use your physical skills for astral combat when you were astrally perceiving.

[Stahlseele]

and, appearantly, in SR4 too, at least, according to our dear old cookie and the SR4 FAQ . . neither nor being official canon rules of course . . but i'd rater trust him than the FAQ anyway *snickers*
yeah, the lobbing spells from far above is the one big draw-back . .
but the ghouls would still get his physical attributes for damage and the claw damage bonus . .
with dwarf+ghoul strength i think that can make for a nice whopping . .
especially, if the adept has a cyber-arm with rocket-punch function and the critical strike power ^^
(yes, i am tired and hopped up on caffeine, don't mind my insane babbling)

[Neraph]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I remember reading in the cyber-zombie section (maybe of Arsenal, but it may have been FAQ) that a cyber-zombie's implanted cyber-spurs would ignore ItNW (as it becomes Dual Natured upon implantation), and a cyber-gun would become Dual Natured as well, but the bullets stop being Dual Natured upon leaving the barrel of the weapon.

So, in short, Dual Natured characters can in fact use physical melee weapons (Unarmed, implants) to damage astral opponents. I think it's Astral Combat to attack, using the DV of the actual weapon (as opposed to Cha).