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> Non-AR/VR Computer Use, Can we say legacy?
Digital Heroin
post Dec 20 2008, 06:31 AM
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I know the AR rules, I've digested pretty much all there is to know about VR... but I seem to have missed something along the line, and it's irking at my brain, because it's important to a stupidly eccentric concept of mine (and if I'm saying it's stupidly eccentric, that's bad). Where are the rules on just plain using a computer via keyboard/screen? There have to be some people still doing it, right? Like some old dusty fart of a mage who can't be bothered to learn to use fancy new AR gizmos (and no, that's not the concept).

Anyone point my sorry ass in the right direction?
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KurenaiYami
post Dec 20 2008, 06:50 AM
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What is this "computer" of which you speak?

That anything like a cyberdeck? I haven't seen a cyberdeck since the crash.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 20 2008, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ Dec 20 2008, 01:31 AM) *
I know the AR rules, I've digested pretty much all there is to know about VR... but I seem to have missed something along the line, and it's irking at my brain, because it's important to a stupidly eccentric concept of mine (and if I'm saying it's stupidly eccentric, that's bad). Where are the rules on just plain using a computer via keyboard/screen? There have to be some people still doing it, right? Like some old dusty fart of a mage who can't be bothered to learn to use fancy new AR gizmos (and no, that's not the concept).

Anyone point my sorry ass in the right direction?


I would think that rather than use a display link, that the mage would use a holographic projector as a screen and a use the "old" desktop model with his software. I would think the rules would be the same for using AR.

I don't think that there would be any special rules (or penalties) for using a keyboard/mouse rather than AR and DNI.
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Digital Heroin
post Dec 20 2008, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (KurenaiYami @ Dec 20 2008, 06:50 AM) *
What is this "computer" of which you speak?

That anything like a cyberdeck? I haven't seen a cyberdeck since the crash.


To asume just because everything went wireless that everyone threw all their old tech away would be beyond my level of lunacy. Even now there are massive corporations that use old mainframes and systems running on FORTRAN... because they still work, and do what needs to be done. Why bother getting commlinks to replace already existing terminals, etc... it's just money spent where it doesn't need to be.

Computer, in this case, would apply to commlinks using keyboard/mousewheel as readily as larger terminals...
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Digital Heroin
post Dec 20 2008, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 20 2008, 07:04 AM) *
I would think that rather than use a display link, that the mage would use a holographic projector as a screen and a use the "old" desktop model with his software. I would think the rules would be the same for using AR.

I don't think that there would be any special rules (or penalties) for using a keyboard/mouse rather than AR and DNI.


I'd thought similar, which makes things a lot easier and makes sense. Just project the same image you'd get from AR holographically... the only difference is that everyone can see it.
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Dragnar
post Dec 20 2008, 07:30 AM
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I think the point KurenaiYami tried to make is that "computers" are not only old, but ancient. They had been out of general use for multiple decades by SR1. From the current SR4 view of things, there haven't been computers in our sense of the word for more than 60 years, so someone using one on 2070 would be further behind the times than a modern day corporation using an ENIAC.
So ,the "old tech still gets used" line doesn't appy here.
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Matsci
post Dec 20 2008, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ Dec 20 2008, 07:08 AM) *
To asume just because everything went wireless that everyone threw all their old tech away would be beyond my level of lunacy. Even now there are massive corporations that use old mainframes and systems running on FORTRAN... because they still work, and do what needs to be done. Why bother getting commlinks to replace already existing terminals, etc... it's just money spent where it doesn't need to be.

Computer, in this case, would apply to commlinks using keyboard/mousewheel as readily as larger terminals...


No, they threw the old tech away because the Combination of EMP/ Jourgermund made the the old style computers literally explode.

We arn't talking about using old tech, we are talking about using tech that became flaming wreckage.
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GreyBrother
post Dec 20 2008, 11:58 AM
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And cyberdecks could be thrown away if the new Matrix Standards are incompatible.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 20 2008, 12:58 PM
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AR can be access via anything, but the most common is simsense, thanks to its "by thought" input.

the p317-318 BBB description talks about holo projector and roll up keyboard as one option.

i would guess one could always dig up adapters to use larger, more permanent keyboard and display if one so wanted.

and while the pocketable comlink will be the most useful for runners (who may need to pack up and go at the drop of a thermite grenade), there exist all kinds, including those set up to control whole houses.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 20 2008, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Matsci @ Dec 20 2008, 02:47 AM) *
No, they threw the old tech away because the Combination of EMP/ Jourgermund made the the old style computers literally explode.

We arn't talking about using old tech, we are talking about using tech that became flaming wreckage.


Which page does it state that? I don't remember reading about a world wide EMP that trashed all the world's old tech.
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Blade
post Dec 20 2008, 01:37 PM
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People using keyboards and screen because they can't bother learning the easy to use, user-oriented interface that everyone uses? I guess they're just as many as people who, today, punch cards and read the result on a strip of paper because they can't bother to learn how to use a mouse and screen.
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Sir_Psycho
post Dec 20 2008, 02:01 PM
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User interface technology has come an astounding way by 2070. The whole idea of AR and DNI input is that it's a more intuitive system of control, that can use metaphors and iconography that suits the user. Why would the mage use a keyboard when he can stick a trode or two to his temple, have them comminicate with the commlink through the sim module via wireless/skinlink/fiberoptic cable and then he can have an artificially simulated experience of using a keyboard, even though in reality he's just tapping away on the "woodpanneling" densiplast veneer of his desk.

2070 technology favours portability to the point of it being a pre-requisite of any personal computer, so there is still some more tactile interfaces, but the influence of ubiquitous portability should be apparent. Roll-out or even holographic keyboards. You could even use an image link and some AR gloves to simulate the same effect, and it's much more versatile and portable than actually carrying around a plastic cased keyboard, or even worse, not have any way to access your commlink when you're out of the home. Of course, i'm sure there will be commlink models or even case accessories that are buttons or touch screens like those used in modern mobile phones.
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KurenaiYami
post Dec 22 2008, 07:14 AM
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My original point, phrased differently:

How often do you see eight track players? And that's, what, three decades old? Less? I'm 21 years old, and I've never seen one in real life, only various television programs.

By saying this, am I saying they no longer exist? Not at all. Am I saying that you are quite unlikely to ever stumble upon a functioning one outside of an antique store? Yeah, that's about the size of it.

And would old computers still function within the wireless matrix? Or is it a completely different entity?

As far as commlinks using keyboard/mousewheels...That's actually a tricky one. I'd probably agree with what others have said, same rules for AR and no notable penalties. Aside from possible heckles from young folk, and various offers from antique dealers.
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Digital Heroin
post Dec 22 2008, 07:53 AM
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I should have been quite a bit less obscure, neh? Ok, I cede the fact that it's a stretch to think that people'd be using old-ass computers (though they were available in SR3, unless my brain's gone to rot... I'm a continent away from my books atm).

The reason I'm thinking non-AR is because there are sentient beings that can't use AR. The blind, for one, which would rule out Ghouls, and it is specifically mentioned spirits Possessing a body cannot perceive AR, so I would think they can't while materializing either (off base?). So I was looking more for their purposes than Grampa Edner the Idiot Mage-Child...

The "Keyboard"/"Display" dynamic would be the obvious solution for Spirits, and voice recognition for the blind... but there exist no solid rules.

I can definitely stand behind the K/D solution being of the same rules as AR, since really AR just eliminates the physical need... you still use the same impulses in your head. Voice might be an issue, though.


Edit: And apparently, by Runner's Companion (p. 92), Free Spirits cannot "see or interpret simsense, electronic projections on screens, or AR displays" so they're totally hooped. And thus ends my only Spirit concept.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 22 2008, 02:39 PM
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i guess a spirit could use those really old school paper outputs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleprinter

hmm, i wonder, do e-ink style displays fall under "electronic projections on screens"?
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Bira
post Dec 22 2008, 08:55 PM
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Well, the corebook has stats for a holographic display and it says even portable commlinks can come with a roll-up keyboard at no cost. So I would say that using a traditional monitor/keyboard interface is entirely possible and would use the same rules as for AR.

You could also have AR interfaces projecting a flat screen and/or a virtual keyboard in front of the user, dispensing with the display altogether. That would be pretty common - it's likely that not everything can be done by manipulating pretty arrows.
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ornot
post Dec 23 2008, 12:54 PM
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The impression I got is that a commlink maintains the same functionality as a cyberdeck, but is smaller, hence no real need for a 'deck any more. I rather doubt an old style computer could interface with the matrix, since it wouldn't have the data capacity, even if the protocols were the same. One could certainly set up a commlink so the interface was similar to what we would recognise, with keyboard and monitor, but why would you? If one were to do so, I'd apply the same rules as for regular AR, but then I've tweaked RAW for AR anyway, and make use of many of the optional rules in Unwired.
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nezumi
post Dec 23 2008, 02:35 PM
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No really, pre-2050 technology basically will not be used. Do the basic math.

Given that Moore's law still seems to be in effect, the power of basically your biggest 2040 mainframes are going to be comparable to your 2070s cell phone. So now your big huge box can be reduced in size to something the size of your hand.

There has been a single major technical revolution since 2040, and several minor ones. The stuff used in those computers are no longer used in any other computers. What does that mean? No one produces replacement hardware. The cost for replacement hardware is going to be through the roof. Try getting vacuum tubes (for gear that's a measly 60 years old) and see how much you're paying per byte.

None of the software available will work for it either. When's the last time you even saw a word processor available that'll run on a 286? Probably been a while, eh? Any software troubles are basically unsupported.

If this is the same sort of software we have now, it sort of accumulates "problems" over time. Even Windows XP needs a complete reinstall every half a decade or so, or your computer turns into a slug (I should know, I've been looking for my XP disc for about 6 months). This accumulates over time, between minor hardware failures, software bugs, memory leaks and so on. This means a computer that was 1.5GHz 5 years ago is basically 1GHz this year and .5GHz in ten years. Good luck fixing that.

Most modern computers are not made to last. With the exception of ruggedized computers (and I COULD see some of those surviving, but again, why?) computers are expected to last about 4-6 years. They're made out of plastic and aluminum. Heck, parts will decay in direct sunlight. This isn't like the computers made in 1940, which were built with solid wood frames and lots of hard metals. Dell does not want you to own a computer which lasts for eighty bazillion years; it's bad for business.

So when it comes down to it, any person actually USING a computer that old will quickly find that the costs of just maintaining it to its low level of useability will soon outweigh the costs of just buying a used cell phone with a little USB hub and buying a new keyboard and mouse (which I'm sure is supported, even if it's just as a 'handicapped feature').

If your runners are digging through ancient caves and happen upon a ruggedized military notebook crudely hard-wired into a wall control, after they clean out the spiders and replace the battery, just use the computer skill with a significant penalty.
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Steampunk
post Dec 23 2008, 02:38 PM
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If you just want to do something like writing a letter, a simple (probably 3D) screen and a keyboard will suffice. AR is just something if you need a combination of reality and computers. For things that can be done with a computer only, a screen and keyboard will be enough. Of course, VR and DNI will provide speed benefits, so not many people will use screen only, as screen + keyboard (tortoise) haven't been common since more than 20 years, even decks had the possibilty for trodes, etc.

So, personally I wouldn't use any specific rules. You don't get any AR bonus, of course, but that's it. I assume that modern (2070) display and keyboards are good enough to allow doing most normal tasks.
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