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> Targeting and indirect illusions
Mal-2
post Jan 2 2004, 04:21 PM
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I'm trying to figure out a few things with indirect illusions, specifically Invisibility. I understand how it works if you target a person: The Sorcery test is TN 4, and it's resisted by Intelligence.

Can you target an object, like a car, with this spell? If so, is the TN still 4, or does it become the Object Resistance of the object?

I see that MitS has a specific Vehicle Mask spell, which is +1(S) drain instead of the +1(M) of a normal Physical Mask. That leads me to think that you cannot target a vehicle with Invisibility, and would need a special Vehicular Invisibility spell (probably also +1(S) drain).

A slightly different question is how Invisibility works when cast as an area (SR3, p195 - [Indirect Illusion spells] must be cast "around" a person or over an area that is withing the caster's line of sight). If you cast an invisibility spell over an area what becomes invisible? Everything with an aura?

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Sphynx
post Jan 2 2004, 04:36 PM
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Cripes Mal, each of those questions is a thread onto itself and the start of alot of the flamewars on this forum. Invisibility is one of the least explained spells, and the reason for it is that, the more you explain, the less it seems like magic and the more like science. I'll do my best though. ;)

Targetting a Car: Yeah, you can target a car w/ Invisibility, but the TN is 8 + Body.

As for an Area Effect Invisibility, everything in the 'sphere', ground included. But don't forget, takes a complex action to move an area effect spell, and then you can only move it at a rate of Magic rating in meters per move, so it's not commonly done.

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Lilt
post Jan 2 2004, 04:49 PM
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I'd say yes to targeting vehicles with indirect illusions (as vehicle mask is an indirect illusion that by canon can be cast around vehicles). So I believe that there is no reason invisibility couldn't be cast around a vehicle. As the base TN for vehicle mask is 4, I believe that there is also no reason to increase the TN for casting such a spell on vehicles.

The reason that vehicle mask has a higher drain could be explained by saying that it is a multi-sense change (affecting all of the senses available to vehicle sensors and thus able to alter signature). That was the best explanation I could come up with, fiddle about with the spell design rules in MitS if you want to consider other options.
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BitBasher
post Jan 2 2004, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE
Targetting a Car: Yeah, you can target a car w/ Invisibility, but the TN is 8 + Body.
Er no, IIRC you cannot target an inanimate object with a mana based spell...

Also remember, via book quote the "Target" of an indirect illusion is the person or entity viewing the illusion, Not whatever the illusion is cast over.

Furthermore Invisibility is a single target spell. One target becomes invisible, it is not an area effect, nor does an area effect version of invisibility exist.

I just said three things that look like they contradict each other because of the freaking changing definition of the word "target" in the sense of illusions. We need some better verbage for this subject.
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Sphynx
post Jan 2 2004, 05:03 PM
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Bah, I meant Improved Invisibility. :P

And according to page 150, Improved Invisibility on a car is indeed 8+Body. "Spells cast against vehicles have a TN of ... 8 + their Body Rating + half their Armour Rating".

Tried to answer per Canon, in our games, you can't target anything non-living with either spell. (Too many questions came up when casting it on a door at a low enough force and with minimal successes so it was auto-resisted, then the team intentionally not resisting the effect, creating 1-way mirrors of sorts)

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Spookymonster
post Jan 2 2004, 05:20 PM
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Only the target of a spell gets a spell resistance test. The subject of an Indirect Illusion (i.e., the thing being made invisible) is not the target, as BitBasher already pointed out. Anyone viewing the subject is considered a valid target (for Indirect Illusions, at least), and therefore gets a chance to resist the spell.

Because an Indirect Illusion isn't really doing anything to you per se, there's nothing you can do to stop it. It just makes everyone else around you 'forget' that you're standing there. Therefore, they get resistance checks, not you.
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BitBasher
post Jan 2 2004, 05:24 PM
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Im not sure I like the subject not getting a resistance roll either. Elsewise you could make an illusiuon of a man stabbing a nun to death, toss it over someone you don't like when the Star is around and boom. He's dead. No roll for him to resist. Many nefarious uses could be derived from this.
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Hasaku
post Jan 2 2004, 05:38 PM
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I believe physical mask spells require voluntary targets, but if you want to do something with Trid Phantasm and the like...
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Lilt
post Jan 2 2004, 06:00 PM
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The TN to cast Vehicle Mask around a vehicle is 4. If the TN was truly the OR of the spell (such as the wreck and ram spells that have their TN listed as OR) then it would probably be listed as such.

Note the spell targeting section on P 182 where it says that the base TN is Willpower or Body for living beings, and Object Rating for inanimate objects. The next paragraph, however, is:
QUOTE ("p182 @ SR3)
Other spells have specific target numbers; see the individual spell descriptions on pages 191-98.
Implying that where a TN is listed with the spell, the specified TN has priority. Also note P50 of MitS where it states that the TN for indirect illusions is 4, and P55 of MitS where it states that anyone who views the subject is a target of the spell.

[edit]There is nothing to say that physical masks need voluntary targets, indeed the mask spells are as hard to cast as the invisibility spells. If they did need voluntary targets, then they would be completely pointless as people would need to voluntarily believe in the mask.[/edit]
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Lilt
post Jan 2 2004, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (Sphynx @ Jan 2 2004, 05:03 PM)
in our games, you can't target anything non-living with either spell.  (Too many questions came up when casting it on a door at a low enough force and with minimal successes so it was auto-resisted, then the team intentionally not resisting the effect, creating 1-way mirrors of sorts)

Bah. there goes the team's plan of slipping in in an invisible tilt-wing... U sure we can't change your mind?
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Snake Oil
post Jan 2 2004, 06:08 PM
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Indirect Illusions can only be cast on a person or an area unless the spell's description specifically states otherwise. It's in the basic description of Indirect Illusions in the core book. Neither Invisibility nor Mask are area spells, so neither will work on a vehicle.

Vehicle Mask is a tailored area version of Mask that can be cast on a vehicle (presumably with the Limited Target design option). The target number is 4 because that's what those viewing the illusion have to see through. Subjects of these spells don't get a Resistance Test at all unless they try to see past the illusion themselves. And yes, it can be a very effective offensive use of illusions by creative players. Offensive is not the sole domain of Combat Spells.
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Sphynx
post Jan 2 2004, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Snake Oil)
Indirect Illusions can only be cast on a person or an area unless the spell's description specifically states otherwise.

Heh, the Sphynx learned something new today. Never noticed it actually said "person" instead of "object". That would also explain the increased drain for casting an Indirect Illusion over a non-person (though that 'option' should have been added to the MitS). Very cool, now I no longer have to worry about casting Invis/Mask on non-livings, it's Canon. :P

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Shanshu Freeman
post Jan 2 2004, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)

I just said three things that look like they contradict each other because of the freaking changing definition of the word "target" in the sense of illusions. We need some better verbage for this subject.

For the sake of discussion, I can offer a working definition.


Mark (meta people viewing the illusion)

Subject (Illusion itself)
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Lilt
post Jan 2 2004, 07:55 PM
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Hmm... The area effect mod is one possibility for the heavier drain. A +1(S) spell would then be needed to make a vehicle invisible... Could be worse. I might grab my character that at some point, I think the force 8 spirit with concealment is the way to go right now though.

[edit]Just noticed that it's not listed as an area effect spell on P167 of MitS. My initial point that it is a multi-sense illusion, rather than some form of area effect modifier, still stands. Note that the spell also allows for the signature to be altered which invisibility dosen't technically do (it does make vehicle sensors less effective though)[/edit]
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Mal-2
post Jan 2 2004, 08:03 PM
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Thanks, guys.

My current take on the rules is this - Indirect Illusions can only be cast on people (for targeted spells like Invisibility or Stealth) or an area (for area spells like Phantasm or Silence). If you want to target an object, you need a variant of the normal spell (like Vehicle Mask from MitS).

A hypothetical Vehicular Invisibility spell might look something like this:
Type: P - Target: 4 - Duration: S - Drain +1(S), and use the same general rules as Vehicle Mask from MitS, p144.
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Lilt
post Jan 2 2004, 08:09 PM
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Mal-2: I'd suggest you also note that vehicle mask spell also alters signature, that could be read as enough functionality that the Vehicle Invisibility spell could add a +8 to a vehicle's signature, or you could allow versions of the camo spell (with +1(M) drain) that give a +4 to the vehicle's signature and visual TNs to notice it.
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Rev
post Jan 2 2004, 08:26 PM
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Yea it's too bad they didn't mention what to do casting an indirect illusion on an unwilling target.

Imho they should get a resistance test that works like this:

T# is higher of 4 and willpower, resisted by willpower and spell defense (if target is aware of a spell to resist, or in combat, etc) reducing net sucesses this could cause the spell to fail, or just weaken it.

Though resisting with charisma would be kind of cool too.
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Rattler
post Jan 2 2004, 10:57 PM
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Why not leave it with Intelligence?
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Rev
post Jan 2 2004, 11:30 PM
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The regular resistance test is intelligence because the resistor is trying to see past the illusion but this unwilling target resistance isn't like that. The resistor is trying to avoid having thier appearance changed. That seems like either a general magic resistance, which would be willpower, or resisting having your own uhmm presence covered up, which sounds like charisma (charisma determining the strength of your presence to those around you). I am liking charisma more and more.

Anyway whatever. Basically I just think there needs to be some chance for the person whos appearance is changed to resist. As is any two bit mage can cast a physical mask on mr uber magical enemy with six shielding dice on himself to trick his friends into shooting him down.
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Lilt
post Jan 3 2004, 05:06 AM
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I don't see any problem with casting invisibility on unwilling targets (by canon they don't get a resistance roll as it isn't actually targeting them at all. If the players do it for a tactical advantage then kudos to them.

[edit]The shielding dice on the friends would work, and probably allow them to see the mage (probably invisible, you know the type). Shielding still technically ups the static TN so even a shielding of 2 can put invisibility's casting TN up to 6.
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Cain
post Jan 3 2004, 08:20 PM
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Depending on what you need, Vehicle Mask can fulfill many of the roles Invisibility does. One run, to cover our entry, the shaman cast Vehicle Mask to make our helicopter look like pigeon. (We blew our cover, though; our rigger wasn't thinking and kept flying at full speed. There's something very supicious about a pigeon flying 80 miles an hour...:oops:)
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Snake Oil
post Jan 3 2004, 09:46 PM
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Vehicle Mask is limited to altering the appearance to something of the same Body rating, and I think it even states it has to be another vehicle but I don't have my book handy to look that up. Regardless, you couldn't turn anything but a Body 0 drone into a pigeon. The best use for Vehicle Mask in those situations is the Signature improvement or using it to hide armor and weapons and thus make it look like a civilian transport.

The same is true of Mask and Physical Mask. The illusion has to be roughly the same size as the subject. So no changing an obese giant into a skinny gnome using the spell. But an average human might be turned into a slender ork or a chubby dwarf.
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