Gauss Rifle Weak?, Is it a little...underpowered? Options

[InfinityzeN]

as long as you're not trying to move the whole universe, technically you allways have a bigger system around you as a point of reference . .
i ain't fit in my physics, but if there's no gravitation keeping the box still, and i manage to move it through inertial force from me hitting the box from the inside . . with the box being my frame of reference here . . would it not move? probably first in the opposite direction of my feet while running, kinda like those people walking on balls or barrels or something like that . . but if it's only a box with not much mass being weightless . . it means i can move it from within by applying force . .
and in the world of shadowrun, i just say magic again to screw over physics mom telling it to look the other way untill i am done if it does not like what it will have to witness . .

The only problem is that all the inertial force you developed was gained from interacting with the box, so it was actually moving in the opposite direction you were trying to get it to move when you impact it again with the exact same amount of inertial force that you had. Net effect, center mass point of you and the box remains in the same location. Go back and read the frog in a light box example above. Your the frog in the light box in the case, with you actually barely moving while the box is tossed back and forth around you. Though your point of view of the situation inside the box will be totally different since you can't actually see what is happening outside.

[Larme]

Too many sciencist inoge the idear that there might be no close system per say. Than refrifer willnot it is consider than close system, but it isnot than close system as it is apart of than larger world. That why I say than reactionless engine which doesnot throw out exhaust is possible.

I'm sorry, it sounds like you're saying something interesting, but I can't understand you... Maybe a spell check wouldn't hurt?

[MaxMahem]

I'm sorry, it sounds like you're saying something interesting, but I can't understand you... Maybe a spell check wouldn't hurt?

I think he is trying to say that in fact that newtons 2nd law is incorrect and that you can have some sort of reaction where momentum is not conserved.

This of course is at odds with the thinking of pretty much the entire scientific community. But that hasn't stopped many a crackpot from dreaming up various sorts of "reaction-less thrusters."

Frankly I think homer said it best "Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

[AllTheNothing]

as long as you're not trying to move the whole universe, technically you allways have a bigger system around you as a point of reference . .
i ain't fit in my physics, but if there's no gravitation keeping the box still, and i manage to move it through inertial force from me hitting the box from the inside . . with the box being my frame of reference here . . would it not move? probably first in the opposite direction of my feet while running, kinda like those people walking on balls or barrels or something like that . . but if it's only a box with not much mass being weightless . . it means i can move it from within by applying force . .
and in the world of shadowrun, i just say magic again to screw over physics mom telling it to look the other way untill i am done if it does not like what it will have to witness . .

If you were in the space (in assence of gravity) into the box and you were to hit the box due innertial movement than you were moving to begin with, at the time of the impact part of your momentum would be tranfered to the box slowing you down and making the box move, but the total momentum of the system would be unchanged (for purely innertial movement); if you were to moveby your own deliberate action than the equation must be expressed as energy, by using muscles you turn chemical energy present in your body into kinetic energy, the act of moving a limb alone adds a certain ammount of momentum to the system even if there was no ammount before, but the overall ammount of energy of the system is unchanged, yes you can move it by punching/kicking it.

[kigmatzomat]

But when you hit the other end of the box the motion stops. Yes, the box "moved" but in essence you are rotating about the centroid. You are exerting energy with no net increase in momentum. Even if you pingpong around the box, the overall momentum remains the same. All you wind up doing is creating heat.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

BTW, keep in mind that the Thunderstruck circumvents Smart Armor too, as Smart Armor is only activated by weapons with a DV of 10+.

I don't think SR's got up to PPC technology yet...

In fact, it did - see ANDREWS in Rigger 3.

[AllTheNothing]

But when you hit the other end of the box the motion stops. Yes, the box "moved" but in essence you are rotating about the centroid. You are exerting energy with no net increase in momentum. Even if you pingpong around the box, the overall momentum remains the same. All you wind up doing is creating heat.

Are you trying to correct me or to complete my reply?
Anyway I'm studing to become an engineer so your sign makes me so evious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

BTW, keep in mind that the Thunderstruck circumvents Smart Armor too, as Smart Armor is only activated by weapons with a DV of 10+.

I wonder if it's porpousfull (as the statement about halving all but smart armor was used in all the gauss weapons) or was a mistake.

In fact, it did - see ANDREWS in Rigger 3.

What PPC standes for?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I wonder if it's porpousfull (as the statement about halving all but smart armor was used in all the gauss weapons) or was a mistake.

The fact that the Thunderstruck has a DV of 9 and thus evades Smart Armor? That' pretty much on purpose - in fact, it was most likely specifically engineered to do so by Ares. Most likely, Ares is running heavy advertisment featuring some heavy power armor infantry sporting thunderstrucks, hunting tanks.

The fact that it has the same rule as any other Gauss weapon? It is still correct - it doesn't halve Smart Armor - it simply doesn't trigger it.

[Werewindlefr]

Actually, no. It isn't the equal and opposite reaction that causes recoil (though it does play a part) but the conservation of momentum that does so.

They're strictly equivalent anyway.

As for Coil/Railguns, also consider the fact that there is no cartridge - the whole momentum is given to the projectile, thus making the weapon more efficient, and generating less recoil for the same projectile momentum as a standard firearm.

As a sidenote to the discuss concerning which weapons do or do not generate recoil, even lasers have recoil (but so microscopic it's not worth talking about). Missile launchers do not, however (because there is no real barrel, the projectile being self propelled.)

[Stahlseele]

I wonder if it's porpousfull (as the statement about halving all but smart armor was used in all the gauss weapons) or was a mistake.




What PPC standes for?

PPC = Particle Projector Cannon.
One of the Biggest Energy Weapons from BattleTech

[AllTheNothing]

PPC = Particle Projector Cannon.
One of the Biggest Energy Weapons from BattleTech

Well if we consider fotons as particles laser weapons could be considered PPCs.

[AllTheNothing]

As a sidenote to the discuss concerning which weapons do or do not generate recoil, even lasers have recoil (but so microscopic it's not worth talking about). Missile launchers do not, however (because there is no real barrel, the projectile being self propelled.)

RL Gyrojet were almost recoilless due minimum momentum impressed at the firing act (the bullet accellerated due a mini rocket engine); they were dropped due the ungodly cost of the ammunitions.

[Dumori]

with hoy superconducter canon in SR a gauss rilfe would very very effective as even a slightly magnetic round would only make contact via the Meissner effect with the air and almost all the power put though the coils would be transfered to the round or at least to kenetci energy.

[InfinityzeN]

Well if we consider fotons as particles laser weapons could be considered PPCs.

No, a laser is not a PPC. And I believe the particle weapons in Shadowrun are more closely related to modern research into particle accelerators and particle beams (been on-going since the 50s).

[Adarael]

Yeah, that's the way I recall it, too. PPCs in Battletech/Mechwarrior fired streams of protons, if I remember correctly.

[AllTheNothing]

Yeah, that's the way I recall it, too. PPCs in Battletech/Mechwarrior fired streams of protons, if I remember correctly.

You mean H⁺ iones?

[Larme]

What else would he mean? Is there some other sort of proton out there that I'm not aware of?

[Stahlseele]

probably somehwere in some remote or incredible hard to find place science just did not look at yet for some reason *grins*
and you're worse then most of the actual battle-tech players i know, really going into the physics of those guns . . eh, runners ^^

[kzt]

Battle tech is far sillier than SR. Giant metal robots that have severe heat issues. Hmm, that's three seperate guidance systems you can use for terminal homing....

[AllTheNothing]

probably somehwere in some remote or incredible hard to find place science just did not look at yet for some reason *grins*
and you're worse then most of the actual battle-tech players i know, really going into the physics of those guns . . eh, runners ^^

Who? Me?
Stahlseele you are a such troll (it's meant to be a compliment, hey you play trolls).
Yet I completely missed the meaning, can you translate?

[Stahlseele]

yes, you, all of you ^^
and yes, i take that as a compliment, thank you very much ^^

discussions about physics is one of the most repeated theme around these parts, because even with frigging magic, people still try to compare the world of shadowrun to our world to figure out how stuff is supposed to work in the game.
and with the years of experience in the most diverse fields around here, you're more or less bound to think you have clicked a wrong link and landed in some board of higher education for those specific fields ^^
i basically meant, that there's probably somewhere a place where different protons can be found. science just has not found them yet.
it was a joke. i am le tired ^^

[AllTheNothing]

What else would he mean? Is there some other sort of proton out there that I'm not aware of?

Sorry it was that at the highschool when the chemestry prof had the habit of refering H⁺ iones as free protons (even if H⁺ iones could have neutrons as well).
It's been a glimpse of youth.

[kigmatzomat]

Anyway I'm studing to become an engineer so your sign makes me so evious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hopefully you don't go into consulting civil engineering. It sucks. It paid 75% what I made in the IT field starting out, it took me 7 years to get back to what I was making in 2000. I got my PE in December 2007 which gave me an office and made me too expensive to survive the next economic hard time. I left this past July and I was informed by former clients that in September the office responsible for 80% of my workload was shut down.

I work in IT again, and I'm making slightly more than I did as engineer.

If you are civvie, spend your 20s in a consulting firm and find a decent niche and then in your 30s find a job in the public sector that you can retire in.

I had to pull out a lot of math this time around because as a civvie, momentum never comes into play. If a building moves, the building has failed. Most of my work was hydraulics, the most dynamic wing of civil engineering, and even there you deal more with force, moments, and deflections than energy or momentum. Energy and power only shows up when sizing pumps and powered control systems.

[The Jake]

Muzzle flash is possible from ionization, think static sparks or stun gun arc. Jacob's ladder, given the energy involved. Rail guns are more likely to flashily ionize than coil guns.

And the round leaves a supersonic "wake" that is a shockwave along the entire trajectory. It is experienced as a singular boom to observers at a point in space. If you have enough mics and/or processing power, you can calculate the point of origin (e.g.spatial recognizer) but apply the silenced weapon modifier.

That description just makes me drool.

- J.