Can Astral Combat be used against mundanes?, Attacking their aura? Options

[vollmond]

SR4, pg 184

Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical com-
bat. Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their
Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical
body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fight whol-
ly astral entities. Astrally projecting characters use their Mental
attributes in place of Physical ones (see the Astral Attributes
Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill.

So to clarify, does this mean:

Astrally projecting characters use their Mental
attributes in place of Physical ones (and can only attack astral forms)

or does it mean

Astrally projecting characters use their Mental
attributes in place of Physical ones (even when attacking a non-astral mundane)

[Stahlseele]

you can only attack other astral beings or dual natured beings.
you can not attack someone who is cut off from the astral by being totally mundane.

[vollmond]

Ok, so if I'm an astrally projecting magician and I manifest, I'm stuck with spells as the only way I can harm a mundane.

Good to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

You cannot cast spells on a mundane by manifesting. When you manifest, it's just a visible image of a purely astral creature. You could cast spells if you MATERIALIZED (like elementals do), but mages can't do that.

[vollmond]

Wait..

SR4, pg 184

Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are
vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane.

So are you saying that this is one-way? I can be attacked but cannot respond?

[Muspellsheimr]

If you are an astrally projecting magician, you can't do shit to mundanes, except maybe freak out Joe Average by appearing as a ghost or something (manifesting).

[Jackstand]

So are you saying that this is one-way? I can be attacked but cannot respond?

That is exactly the case.

[vollmond]

Ugh. That violates my common sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I would think, if I'm "close" enough to the physical world that a non-projecting, non-perceiving mage can hit me with a manabolt, then I ought to be "close" enough to return the favor.

Oh well. I presume this has probably been done to death here, so I will bow to the more-experienced DSers.

Thanks for the clarifications.

[Jackstand]

No problem. I think that the issue is, if you want a technical explanation, a matter of Line of Sight, which is so important for spell-casting in Shadowrun. Even though you're manifest on the physical plane, you're still only perceiving astrally, and thus, can only target things with an astral presence. On the other hand, even though you're not actually physically present, and, technically, if I recall correctly, the physical mage doesn't even really see you because you give him a psychic sense impression, rather than a physical one, he receives that sense impression as though it were with his physical senses, rather than his astral ones, and so is able to target you.

It's sort of the opposite of the regular invisibility spell. Obviously, the invisibility conferred by that spell is not physical invisibility, but psychic invisibility, because you still appear on cameras and other such visual technological sensors. However, even though a mage's eyes still see you, you don't register in his mind, and if he were to cast a manaball at some fellow standing next to you, he would be toasted while you would escape unscathed. Conversely, even though, when manifest, you are not able to be detected by technological sensors, that same manaball would fry you, because, to the mage's mind, you're physically present.

[Draxtier]

There's an errata for manifesting:

p. 184 Manifesting [4]
Change the second line to read:
“Manifesting is a psychic e ect that allows an astral form
to make itself visible and audible on the physical plane through
an act of will.�
Remove the second-to-last line (the one beginning with
“Manifesting characters and spirits, however …�)

The line you were quoting, Vollmond, has been taken out. I take that to mean manifesting magicians are not subject to being the targets of spells by those who cannot perceive them astrally.

[Jackstand]

Oh fine. Just go ahead and make my explanation pointless. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[AllTheNothing]

No problem. I think that the issue is, if you want a technical explanation, a matter of Line of Sight, which is so important for spell-casting in Shadowrun. Even though you're manifest on the physical plane, you're still only perceiving astrally, and thus, can only target things with an astral presence. On the other hand, even though you're not actually physically present, and, technically, if I recall correctly, the physical mage doesn't even really see you because you give him a psychic sense impression, rather than a physical one, he receives that sense impression as though it were with his physical senses, rather than his astral ones, and so is able to target you.

It's sort of the opposite of the regular invisibility spell. Obviously, the invisibility conferred by that spell is not physical invisibility, but psychic invisibility, because you still appear on cameras and other such visual technological sensors. However, even though a mage's eyes still see you, you don't register in his mind, and if he were to cast a manaball at some fellow standing next to you, he would be toasted while you would escape unscathed. Conversely, even though, when manifest, you are not able to be detected by technological sensors, that same manaball would fry you, because, to the mage's mind, you're physically present.

When astraly perceiving you can cast on both phisical and astral planes, yet by your reasoning you would imply that one astraly perceiving couldn't cast on phisical plane because he/she/it isn't actualy using eyes but a reciving a psichic impression, however the rules tell clearly that it can be done, the only requirement is that the caster must be active on the same that the target is; when manifesting you are active on phisical plane otherwise purely phisical living being couldn't register your presence (and you couldn't get nailed by mana based spells on phisical either) so you can return the favor even if the target is active only on phisical; the reason because while manifesting you can only see as you were astraly perceiving is that you ARE astraly perceiving, you are projecting so you left your yeys back with your body, same thing for the hearing and all the regular senses, there's simply no other way to "see" your sorrounding when doing so.
In my opinion it's a hole in the rules and until covered by official sources just about any opinion on the matter could be the right one.

@Vollmond:
I think it should be possible (even when not astraly perceing/projecting) to use astral combat on mundanes, remember that they can employ attacks of will (cool sounding way to tell defaulting astral combat) to return the favor, also while you are manifesting any living being will block your way as its essence is active (and so is solid) on phisical; on the same basis a mana barrier should block mundanes without blocking non-living entities (just think a jail with mana barriers hindering the prisoniers attmpting to escape and drones running around unaffected).

[Whipstitch]

No offense, but your post is bordering on the incoherent.


Anyway, it's not a hole in the rules. Manifesting isn't a true interaction with the physical world, it's more like interacting with the tiny li'l bit of a person's being that is tenuously linked to the astral. Remember, there's metaplanes and all sorts of other phenomena that the Awakened just plain do not understand; assuming the existence of the astral planes puts a neat little bow on any metaphysical questions is naive at best. Anyway, you can make mundane people aware of your astral presence, and they'll translate it to the physical spectrum, but in reality it is a psychic phenomenon unrelated to true sight or other physical interactions (if people were really "seeing" you, that'd be a simple matter of light bouncing into retinas; in that case cameras & drones could pick it up.) It's more like you're "lending" them a certain amount of awareness that they may then use against you, but they still must somehow resort to mana based abilities in order to jack you up, which makes sense since mana is essentially "dual natured" for all intents and purposes.

[vollmond]

@Draxtier

Ok, that errata makes me less unhappy.

I still think it would make sense for a projecting mage to be able to cast a mana spell targetting a character's aura, since that is perfectly visible (if dim) on the astral. Hmm..

[Red_Cap]

Then this is something I've been misunderstanding for a while, then. I understand that a mundane can't effectively fight against an astrally projecting character, but even a mundane has an aura on the astral. . . . . so why can't that aura be karate-chopped by an atral projector?

[hyzmarca]

Let's say that you've got a stained glass window protected by a sheet of bulletproof lexan. Being on the wrong side of that lexan, you cannot break the stained glass window. But you should be able to hurt the window by karate chopping the colored light that passes through the lexan barrier, right?

An aura is just intangible glowy stuff, the astral version of light. Mana passes through the living being and is colored by it, so you can't attack an aura any more than you could attack a flashlight beam.

[Riley37]

Would you enjoy the setting and stories more, if any mage could, while astrally projecting, easily kill anyone who lacked astral countermeasures... even more than is already possible, that is?

Joe, playing Bubba the Troll: I walk over to Stuffer Shack for a snack.
GM: You feel something bad happen to you. Your full sensor suite shows no one anywhere near you, and no projectiles or beams are passing near you (let alone at you). Make a Magical Threats knowlege roll.
Joe: 2 hits.
GM: It's some mage projecting on the Astral and kicking your aura until you die, one box of P at a time.
Joe: Dammit. They don't even need Ritual magic for that? or sending spirits to attack me?
GM: Nope. You're hosed. What will you do in your remaining seconds of life?

[Morrigana]

Would you enjoy the setting and stories more, if any mage could, while astrally projecting, easily kill anyone who lacked astral countermeasures... even more than is already possible, that is?

Joe, playing Bubba the Troll: I walk over to Stuffer Shack for a snack.
GM: You feel something bad happen to you. Your full sensor suite shows no one anywhere near you, and no projectiles or beams are passing near you (let alone at you). Make a Magical Threats knowlege roll.
Joe: 2 hits.
GM: It's some mage projecting on the Astral and kicking your aura until you die, one box of P at a time.
Joe: Dammit. They don't even need Ritual magic for that? or sending spirits to attack me?
GM: Nope. You're hosed. What will you do in your remaining seconds of life?

It would be even more amusing if it were stun damage, and the troll was allowed to roll willpower to resist.

[Red_Cap]

This is why the only magic I touch is Adept powers. All this metaphysical Astral stuff gives me a headache.

[AllTheNothing]

No offense, but your post is bordering on the incoherent.


Anyway, it's not a hole in the rules. Manifesting isn't a true interaction with the physical world, it's more like interacting with the tiny li'l bit of a person's being that is tenuously linked to the astral. Remember, there's metaplanes and all sorts of other phenomena that the Awakened just plain do not understand; assuming the existence of the astral planes puts a neat little bow on any metaphysical questions is naive at best. Anyway, you can make mundane people aware of your astral presence, and they'll translate it to the physical spectrum, but in reality it is a psychic phenomenon unrelated to true sight or other physical interactions (if people were really "seeing" you, that'd be a simple matter of light bouncing into retinas; in that case cameras & drones could pick it up.) It's more like you're "lending" them a certain amount of awareness that they may then use against you, but they still must somehow resort to mana based abilities in order to jack you up, which makes sense since mana is essentially "dual natured" for all intents and purposes.

Ok it was late and I was about to go to sleep when I posted, I could just have missed the Draxtier's post (or maybe he sent it while I was writing the mine), I didn't know (or at least I didn't absorb the info) about it being errataed; reguarding my post being incoerent I reject your statement for what I posted was the result of reasonig, not some random ideas backed just by a "because it's cool" argument (I will give you that after reading Draxtier's post its point is moot though).
I would also like to point out that mana isn't dual natured, it flowes on both phisical and astral planes (probably being able to pass from one to the other) and it is reactive to emotions (auras are just mana glowing in reaction to the presence of living being on the phisical plane), if it was dualnatured manawarps (and manavoids) would affect phicical being as well (just like a a manaball cast on phisical would), but they don't. Mana is just the base matter of magic, left alone it will be just unexpressed potential for magical things to happen, speaking of it being dualnatured is pointless, it could be shaped in something dualnatured but it isn't di per se.
Than you have the right to rule it in any way you like it in your games, not my place telling you what's right and what's wrong.
Have fun.

[AllTheNothing]

It would be even more amusing if it were stun damage, and the troll was allowed to roll willpower to resist.

Being from astral the attack would be manabased so it would be resisted with willpower anyway, a troll is likely to have more phisical damage boxes than stun ones though.

[vollmond]

Ok, the stained-glass window example makes sense to me.

Crap. Just realized this probably applies to non-combat... guess I couldn't have levitated my team out of that penthouse after all.. oops.

Ok, so the security companies that keep an mage on call w/ astral projection - cannot really do much if the security threat is a non-summoning mage. Unless counterspelling can transcend the planes, which I assume it can't. Must be the low-end protection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Ok, the stained-glass window example makes sense to me.

Crap. Just realized this probably applies to non-combat... guess I couldn't have levitated my team out of that penthouse after all.. oops.

Ok, so the security companies that keep an mage on call w/ astral projection - cannot really do much if the security threat is a non-summoning mage. Unless counterspelling can transcend the planes, which I assume it can't. Must be the low-end protection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The big advantage there is the ability to call in and direct bound spirits, as well as the ability to relay information via psychic link.

[Whipstitch]

I would also like to point out that mana isn't dual natured, it flowes on both phisical and astral planes (probably being able to pass from one to the other) and it is reactive to emotions (auras are just mana glowing in reaction to the presence of living being on the phisical plane), if it was dualnatured manawarps (and manavoids) would affect phicical being as well (just like a a manaball cast on phisical would), but they don't. Mana is just the base matter of magic, left alone it will be just unexpressed potential for magical things to happen, speaking of it being dualnatured is pointless, it could be shaped in something dualnatured but it isn't di per se.
Than you have the right to rule it in any way you like it in your games, not my place telling you what's right and what's wrong.
Have fun.

I didn't say it is dual natured, I said for all practical purposes, it might as well be. Mana doesn't just exist on the astral or the physical plane. A mana void isn't a physical void or an astral void, it's just a void. When you cast a Physical spell, you're still using mana, it's just that any effect worth mentioning is a purely physical phenomena. Mana doesn't give a crap whether you're an astral form or a physical form, either way, it can still be used to kick your ass. As long as the Magician has some direct psychic connection to something, he can target it. It doesn't matter HOW he gets the bond, just that he has it. Usually Magicians acquire this by sight, which would make sense since we're highly visual creatures, but there's other ways of knowing who to address the Mana Bolt to, such as Ritual Magic & a spotter/material link or the use of Astral Perception.

[vollmond]

The big advantage there is the ability to call in and direct bound spirits, as well as the ability to relay information via psychic link.

Ahhh sense makes