Shadowrun's Islam and Metahumans Options

[Negalith]

Ive read in shadowrun cannon that Islam.. for the most part... does not tolerate magic. How accepting is Islam of metahumans in the shadowrun setting, particularly the fundamnetalist jihadist sort?

[Malicant]

They throw stones at them until they stop being an insult to Allah. More or less.

[Backgammon]

Nah Islam is fairly cool about magic. Well, like all the big religions, there are many sub-faiths in Islam, and some totally embrace magic while others do not. But overall, Islam accepted magic much more than, say, Christianity did.

Metahumans, though... yeah, not so much. Metas face severe persecution in the Islamic world. My memory is fuzzy on this, but there are 2 major divides right now (Shadowrun "right now") in the Islamic world. The old schoolers are fundies that hate metas and would never work with them. But there is a new counter-movement gaining popularity that preaches tolerance and acceptance of metas.

[Negalith]

I was reading the thing about the Shadam that posessed the Islamic leader and it talked about how it was hard to detect due to Islam's rejection of magic. Inder the Islamic Magic tradition in Street magic it gives the impression that most of Islam distains magic.

[MaxMahem]

I have no idea where cannon stands on this, but here are my feelings on Islam and Metahumanity.

Islam (like most successful religions) has always been a big on conversion. Either by choice or by force in some cases, but it has proven to be fairly inclusive as far as race goes (though not, obviously gender). Fundamentally all one has to do to be a Muslim is to practice the 5 pillars of Islam. I see no reason for that to change in the sixth world.

Plus, I think thematically it is cool if Islam, which we currently view mostly as an oppressive regressive religion, but was very progressive in the past, becoming more progressive again in the future. At least where acceptance of meta-humanity is concerned. The concept of Islam accepting Orks and Trolls into the mix, while keeping women repressed compelling thematicaly. Plus, the image of an devout Muslim ork/troll religiously doing the Salah (praying 5 times a day) is cool to me.

As for magic, I'm mixed about it. I have no clue what the current Islamic beliefs concurning sorcery are, but I do know that Islamic/Persian mythology is full of it. So I would think that it would probably be mostly accepted with perhaps new sects forming along pro/anti magic lines. Maybe the current major Sects (Sunni and Shi'a) merge, then split into new groups over this difference?

[Glyph]

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard.

At least with Islam, there are still some moderates, and you can certainly have progressives in places like the UCAS or India.

[hobgoblin]

alternate reality timeline, starting from around the 80's.

sr is what some thought the future would hold back then, with a dash of interesting interpretation of certain calendar...

and a lot of the early material was written with a "would it be cool if" angle, and unless one is willing to pull a nwod on the timeline, its something one has tto learn to live with...

[pbangarth]

It has been argued by some that Islam is a victim of its tendency to be -too- inclusive, and absorbing influences from cultures drawn into the fold. Fundamentalist sects, female genital mutilation and such are cultural elements that come not from the core beliefs but local peoples. Before the Crusades, Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony in the Middle East.

Peter

[MaxMahem]

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard.

At least with Islam, there are still some moderates, and you can certainly have progressives in places like the UCAS or India.

I agree with you mostly. Some things in the SR Metaplot have always struck me as wildly implausible (Native American revolution especially). Thus I have done like you and largely done my best to ignore them as much as possible. Which is why, for example, I have run my most recent campaigns in NYC and Miami.

However, for things like Islam attitude towards Metahumanity and magic, which tough on the meta-plot only relatively lightly, I have no qualms about changing them.

I am mixed about Japan though. There is even today there a lot of xenophobic racism over there, especially when it relates to other Asian people. But there is also a meme of acceptance, even of (or especially of) the very strange. A resurgent, even imperial Japan is also a major Cyberpunk theme, so I am mostly okay with their choices over there.

[Whipstitch]

Gotta agree with Glyph. I'm Irish-Mexican, and part of the reason both sides of the family were relatively enthusiastic about my parent's marriage was due to everyone involved being Catholic. I mean, honestly guys, my upbringing was painfully Catholic. I mean that quite literally; there was a private school and a stereotypical grumpy-nun-with-a-ruler involed in 2nd grade.

[KCKitsune]

I like the game system, and the 'Ware is, IMO, the BEST implementation of augmentation in any game I've ever seen. That aside... some of the fluff has me mashing the "I BELIEVE!!!!!!" button pretty damn hard. Honestly, governments are the LAST people to give up power. They love it too damn much to share.

[Negalith]

"I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard."

Amen to that!

[Whipstitch]

My favorite is when people are discussing what amounts to Astral metaphysics and break out objections like "I'm sorry, but that clashes with common sense,". Hey guys, you know what else is counterintuitive? Pretty much everything that came out of quantum phsyics ever! But don't let this stop you from nitpicking how pretend alternate dimensions work in a game in which Dunkelberry the Dragon was handily elected president. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

[Prospero]

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard.

At least with Islam, there are still some moderates, and you can certainly have progressives in places like the UCAS or India.

Actually, I lived in Ireland for a while and out of the dozen or so Irish people I was friends with, not one went to church or had anything beyond a passing belief in religion (though all would say they were Catholic if you asked them). So Ireland honestly doesn't really suprise me much.

As far as Islam, it seems to me that the general stereotype is that Islam doesn't look kindly on magic, but it seems to almost be a cultural rather than a religious thing - i.e. in Iran, it's a big deal since Tehran got taken down by a dragon and anything having to do with the Awakening is a huge no-no. In many other Islamic countries, especially ones like Malaysia where the Islamic Renaisance Movement is big, magic and the supposed long tradition of Islamic magic (discussed in Street Magic, I think) is totally fine with most people. I also remember that metahumans were persona non grata in Iran, but no one really cared much about metatype in Iraq. So it depends more on culture, IMO, than religion.

[Pyritefoolsgold]

I'm sure that different sects have different views on the subject, and am equally sure that the "metahumans are demons" sects and the "Orcs are ok as long as they're not mages" sects are leaving blood and bullets all over the middle east, especially when latter's leader is a troll.. some sects have been cowed by the destruction of Tehran, others have only been inspired to vengeance. Then there are moderate groups trying to embrace, or at least learn to live with, the changes in the world.

It might be worth looking into what metavariants and infected metavariants you would get in the middle east. Someone who knows more about islamic, arabic, and persian mythology than me will have to answer that one, though.

[Red_Cap]

From what I read in SoA, most Middle Eastern Muslims look quite firmly down on anything remotely related to the Awakening. The few mages in Islamic lands are viewed with suspicion. Part of this is because any type of magic or mysticism is seen as the work of the devil, but also because the vast majority of Islamic mages are Sufis -- the whirling dervishes -- and Sufism is a small and distrusted sect of Shi'a Islam (Sunnis are the majority of Muslims, and they generally dislike Shi'as, so of course they'll dislike the "mystic" Shi'as even more). While the immediate and massed stoning of metahumans stage seems to have passed except in the really hardcore areas (like Iran), I'd surmise that it's still not a good idea to be a meta in the Middle East unless you're a glutton for punishment.

Now, for all of the Muslims outside of the Middle East, those same rules probably do not apply. For the most part, expatriate Middle Easterners and converted Western Muslims have been more progressive and liberal than those in say, Saudi Arabia or Egypt, so I can see a practicing Muslim from London or NYC as a mage without having any sort of crisis of conscience.

Kurds, Iraqis, and Lebanese are the most likely Muslims to be a mage or accepting of all things Awakened. Lebanon is one of the most civilized (in the Western, Occidental sense of the word) Middle Eastern nations with the majority of its Christians, Jews, and Muslims living in relative harmony (note: I did say majority, not counting the Palestinian expatriates and their attendant fanaticisms). I can tell you from personal experience that most Kurds are Muslim the way most Irish are Catholic: sure, I will say I'm Catholic when asked, but I only go to mass on Christmas, Easter, or after a particularly brutal night of debauchery. Plus, they've got a Great Dragon watching their back, so that opens lots of magically doors for them. Iraqis just tend not to be fanatical about much so long as outsiders don't stick their noses into their personal business (then they get possessive).

[hobgoblin]

It has been argued by some that Islam is a victim of its tendency to be -too- inclusive, and absorbing influences from cultures drawn into the fold. Fundamentalist sects, female genital mutilation and such are cultural elements that come not from the core beliefs but local peoples. Before the Crusades, Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony in the Middle East.

Peter

as long as all the others properly respected muslim laws and customs, iirc...

and islam is not the only religion to have done one hell of a job mixing local customs and global religion. thats how christianity got spread.

sure, its called christmas in english, but its still yule by name around my part of the world (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

and before that, the romans pulled a similar trick. the "conquered" areas could keep their religions, they just had to put the roman ones on equal footing (and zeus on top, not that they needed to really pray to him).

people are "funny" that way, as long as they can keep on doing their thing, they dont care who leads or collects taxes. bread and circus to the nth degree...

in some ways, the same thing is happening via the global spread of US culture, thanks to multinational corps, hollywood and satellite tv...

[Warlordtheft]

Before the Crusades, Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony in the Middle East.

Not really, the Muslims conqured the areas that were once part of the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine empire), which at that point I'm not sure who controlled the areas south of present day Turkey (probably a local warlord type figure) and east of Tunisia. The initial Jihad by muslims pretty much ecompassed all of this area of the middle east (including egypt). One of the differences is that early Islam accepted people of the book (Jews and Christians), but required them to pay extra taxes for not being muslim. But I digress...the crusades were a direct (if delayed) response to this. Part of this was due to the Moors in spain trying push up further into Europe. As for everyone living in harmony in the middle east, that isn't true (the Kurds still wanted their own homeland at this time too).


Now one of the ironic things is that the Crusades eventually led to the destruction of the Byzantine empire.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

I guess that's why I laugh when people get too hung up over realism - parts of the metaplot are so ludicrous that they only work if you just ignore them as much as you can, and try not to think about them too hard.

At least with Islam, there are still some moderates, and you can certainly have progressives in places like the UCAS or India.

Then Japanese, Catholics, and Islamic people should look on the bright side. At least they are not form California.

[Adarael]

True dat.

[AngelisStorm]

Islam can join the Japanese and the Catholics as people who have been screwed over in the setting by wretched implausibilities. In Islam, the fundie whackos are apparently the majority now (or at least have infected the majority with their regressive beliefs). In Catholicism, apparently they have been mostly displaced from Ireland (!) and Mexico (!). And the Japanese have regressed to their xenophobic WWII days. I know it's a distopian setting, but come on.

Really Glyph? From what I've read, it appears there are still very large numbers of Catholics in both Ireland and Mexico. The sections of the old books talking about the new Templars said (I believe) that they were working in both areas with believers. It's just that in both areas, the Catholics were smart enough to shut up instead of dying when the regime changed (similar to how the Russian church reappeared almost overnight after the USSR collapsed).

And while culturally Japan is really interesting, they have had their... moments. Is it really completely implausable that they would revert to Imperialism? A huge portion of the society is very conformist.

[Sir_Psycho]

Not to mention that the Japanese people might have been pursuaded into complacency with their new imperialisim by propaganda.

"Hey! Why can't we have a military again?"

[Adarael]

It's unlikely that they would return to imperialism with either the speed or the enthusiasm at that speed in the way it's presented. Even during the imperial period of the 20th century, it's not like it was as bad as it was presented in Shadowrun. The Taisho period punctuated imperialism with fairly progressive democracy, and from the Meiji to Taisho periods there was a great deal of "on again, off again" with regards to military buildup. It's only from about 1932 to 1945 that you see the sort of guns-blazing, kick you in the junk, nihon ichiban attitudes that seem to be de rigeur in Shadowrun.

Now don't get me wrong, I can easily see 70 years producing another Empire of Japan - much more so that Germany going back to being Nazi, which would be nigh impossible. But the way they present it in canon, it's almost as if the nation literally went to bed one night being all about democracy, capitalism, and international relations, and then the next morning woke up and said, "Screw you toolboxes, we're a bunch of quasi-facist assholes now." Propaganda takes time to work. This was more like a mind control ray.

But a large part of cyberpunk is fear of a Japanese planet. So, you know. I can overlook some of it for that. And besides, it puts Japanese language commonality on par with English language commonality. Which is awesome.

[hobgoblin]

a fear rooted in watching american companies bought left and right by japanese ones, with the resulting clash in leadership styles and other stuff...

now that i think about it, would the zaibatsu of japan be the model of the SR megacorps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu

hell, there is at least one zaibatsu style megacorp operating within SR, iirc...

and outside of the california stunt, im not sure the imperial japan of SR can really be compared to the WW2 one...

[Rasumichin]

Not to mention that the Japanese people might have been pursuaded into complacency with their new imperialisim by propaganda.

"Hey! Why can't we have a military again?"

It's not as if Japan doesn't have a military today, they just label it "Defense Forces" or somesuch.
And in spite of the fact that they have frozen their military budget at not more than 1% of the household, the fact that Japan is still one of the biggest industrial nations in the world, with an accordingly huge household, results in Japan having one of the biggest military budgets in the world.
In the public opinion, the "peace consitution" of 1945 is still held in high esteem, but having neighbours such as North Korea, Russia and the People's Republic of China could change that quickly.

Of course, this does not make SR Japan that much more likely.

Now don't get me wrong, I can easily see 70 years producing another Empire of Japan - much more so that Germany going back to being Nazi, which would be nigh impossible. But the way they present it in canon, it's almost as if the nation literally went to bed one night being all about democracy, capitalism, and international relations, and then the next morning woke up and said, "Screw you toolboxes, we're a bunch of quasi-facist assholes now." Propaganda takes time to work. This was more like a mind control ray.

Which might be one of the reasons why Japan got a complete overhaul in 4th edition, turning it into a rather benevolent superpower now, including an abondonment of their official anti-metahuman policy.

Hm, sometimes i think i'd had preferred a complete reboot of the setting instead of patching up things that seem out of style nowadays...

now that i think about it, would the zaibatsu of japan be the model of the SR megacorps?

They're the model of the megacorps in 1980's cyberpunk, so indirectly, yes.

and outside of the california stunt, im not sure the imperial japan of SR can really be compared to the WW2 one...

The Yomi chapter in Corporate Enclaves suggests that it acted worse enough to justify that comparison.