Feral Cities, A review Options

[wusselpompf]

I meant: if the shop ordered in time, will they be available at jan. 13th in europe too?

I guess that the retailers order (at least as far as it is pegasus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )every new SR SB on time...

[Rasumichin]

I meant: if the shop ordered in time, will they be available at jan. 13th in europe too?

Certainly possible.
If the retailer and the shop both order in time and the book is actually out on that day, my guess is that they should have it.

[Adam]

I need to double-check with David about this one.

[Critias]

I don't think it's off at all. Maybe 99% is a bit of a stretch and "decent" is a debatable term but there are more law-abiding people in the West than professional and amateur criminals. And that would still be true post-apocalypse. A big disaster will wipe out the cities first where most criminal types hang their hats. Bye-bye gangs. Many survivors would be small town, law-abiding types.

Something else to be considered is the middle-class. This is a relatively new phenomena. While history documents the poor and down-trodden turning on each other, we have no historical evidence to support the idea that Suzy Soccer-Mom would trick out her SUV with barb wire and start eating people. It's more likely the survivors would form small farming, mining and/or manufacturing enclaves a la Deadwood than roaming gangs of slobbering pillagers. Even when the Visigoth "barbarians" toppled the Roman Empire the majority of the world was still at peace. Barbarianism is a result of a non-agricultural nomadic lifestyle, not a breakdown in infrastructure.

Mad Max is as intellectually dated as cyberpunk.

I think you're very optimistically underestimating what an empty belly will let most people justify to themselves. Hopefully you'll never have to see this mindset proven wrong.

[Black Jack Rackh...]

I think you're very optimistically underestimating what an empty belly will let most people justify to themselves. Hopefully you'll never have to see this mindset proven wrong.

Hear, Hear. Our grasp on civilization is ever so tenuous, and it takes just a small scrach below the surface to reveal the truth.

Mark

[Wesley Street]

False. Today, the majority of the population (I would estimate ~90%) are "good" people. The reason for this is because of the social structure & law enforcement. They have little reason to steal or otherwise break the law, & the penalty for doing so is far greater than the benefit (in most circumstances).

In a post-apocalyptic setting, where society has broken down & the only law is what you make for yourself, "criminal" behavior would rapidly become the norm. If you shut off food shipments to a large city, within 2 days, shelves would be noticeably depleted. Within 4 days, rioting would likely start. Within 1-2 weeks, nearly the entire population would be ripping each other apart for food. Survival is always first, & even the most upright citizen will rapidly become "criminal" if there was no other option (as would be the case without a coherent society).

I think you missed the part where I mentioned the cities would be the first thing to go in an apocalyptic event. No (or only a very small handful of) survivors means no ripping one another apart.

I'm not naive. I know people can be shit, especially during rush hour traffic. But take away the high-population urban centers, which have a weird, dehumanizing effect on people as they can sap choice, common-sense, and even emotional warmth, and what's left? Bedroom and rural communities where fellowship is a little more common. And if you know your neighbor you're a lot less likely to eat him and a lot more likely to work together toward collective survival. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your "tribe" is more likely to survive through cooperation than banditry.

[Westiex]

One thing I did note ...

P109 one of the posters asks if another poster (Sunshine) was still doing research on Horizon and two posts down is a query as to when the poster was last online

Quote
>query user: Sunshine. Last Log-In, 3 weeks, 4 days, 16 hours, 3 minutes
ago. User is not active on the network.
Unquote

Yet on page 114 she makes a comment on the section on Bagota.

Any comments from the writers on this?

[Synner]

Sunshine came back between the time p.109 was posted and the later comment was posted?

[Tiger Eyes]

One thing I did note ...

P109 one of the posters asks if another poster (Sunshine) was still doing research on Horizon and two posts down is a query as to when the poster was last online

Quote
>query user: Sunshine. Last Log-In, 3 weeks, 4 days, 16 hours, 3 minutes
ago. User is not active on the network.
Unquote

Yet on page 114 she makes a comment on the section on Bagota.

Any comments from the writers on this?

Without the time/date stamps of old (and the really cool posters like Smiling Bandit who used to not have them to show just how elite they were), it is hard to tell when someone has posted. Since not all the Jackpoint posters read the files at the same time, the comments can be (and are) staggered over time. Sunshine (he) posted several comments throughout the uploaded files--likely at the same time--but when another poster followed up with a query to him, he was no longer active on Jackpoint. It's confusing, but remember you're seeing a "snap shot" in time, where the files (and comments) have been already uploaded (some files all at once, sometimes other posters have added additional files, like news clips or stolen memos). The posters you see have gone through and commented on their own timeline - a comment could be immediately after uploading, a few days later, or weeks later. You don't see what posts my happen after your snapshot... The real clue is then if in the next file upload, he's not posting... (like, for example, Puck, who is no longer posting on Jackpoint). The date on the front page is the date the person viewing the files (*you*) are accessing them.

Or it could be like Peter said, that after the absence Sunshine was back...

[InfinityzeN]

I still rather the old time/date stamps. And yea, Smiling Bandit was the man, one of my fav elite chatter/posters.

[Grinder]

SO far I enjoyed reading the book, even though the Chicago-section is a bit behind of "Bug City" - but one question came up recently: how is Lagos fed? How do the 20 millions residents get their food, when the whole sprawl is surrounded by warlords' empires and the like?

[Aaron]

Random guess? Probably through similar (or the same) distribution network(s) that distribute drugs, weapons, etc.

[Hagga]

Shipping, I'd imagine would constitute a large (if expensive) method of importing it. Then there is eating the native cusine, assuming it doesn't kill you. THe swamps have a thriving ecosystem.

[Chrysalis]

For you to feed people in such great numbers Lagos is reliant on foreign aid and shipping, because Lagos certainly does not have a viable economy to keep people fed otherwise.

[Synner]

Lagos is the primary market for pretty much all the Nigerian kingdoms and a few neighboring states, none of the kingdoms have sufficient infrastructure in and around themselves to move their agricultural produce greater distances anyway. Pretty much all shipping in the region has gathered in Lagos and its a primary hub for illegal and legal shipping of all sorts in and out of the area, meaning it's not as "poor" as one would assume. Additionally many people rely on their tribal ties. The Igbo tribemembers will have clan/family in the tribal lands that ensures a steady flow of produce in exchange for a steady supply of manufactured goods and tech from Lagos. Finally, there is a trickle of foreign/corporate aid (in exchange for certain favors and privileges) and ratburgers (still my favorite illo in the book).

[Grinder]

Somehow I missed that part(s) - I got the impression that the kingdoms hardly manage to keep their own people fed and don't have much food to sell to Lagos with subsistence agriculture and all that.

[BookWyrm]

YES! Picked up Feral Cities at I-CON 28 over the weekend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Wesley Street]

What did you think?

I gave it a good re-reading a few days ago. There were some parts that could be tightened up a bit but I found Lagos to be interesting (Africa has been long overdue for detailed exploration) and Chicago gave me the willies as much as Bug City did.

[Backgammon]

Chicago was really, really awesome. I thought Lagos reflected well the "africa hellhole" theme, but found it pretty much inaccessible as a game setting.

[BookWyrm]

I'm going through it slowly, but from the skim-through I gave it while 'minion-ing' at I-CON, it looks good.

[Synner]

I thought Lagos reflected well the "africa hellhole" theme, but found it pretty much inaccessible as a game setting.

Funny you should say that... I don't think I can honestly say you're in for a surprise.

[martindv]

I still cannot fathom how on a continent that right now has more cell phones than landlines and has actually innovated new uses for cellphones that Lagos' wireless Matrix sucks. That's ridiculous and stupid.

[DWC]

I still cannot fathom how on a continent that right now has more cell phones than landlines and has actually innovated new uses for cellphones that Lagos' wireless Matrix sucks. That's ridiculous and stupid.

There's no money to be made in providing matrix service to people who have nothing. I'm sure before the original Crash, many developing nations had phenomenal cellular networks because it was more cost effective than building a hardwired phone network. But between 2 crashes and VITAS, an already impoverished customer base got a lot smaller and a lot broker, reducing the potential profit in extending the new wireless matrix into the old areas. That's before you take into account people scavenging the infrastructure for parts to sell for money to buy food with.

[Tiger Eyes]

I still cannot fathom how on a continent that right now has more cell phones than landlines and has actually innovated new uses for cellphones that Lagos' wireless Matrix sucks. That's ridiculous and stupid.

There are few areas in Lagos where there is intact infrastructure or wired systems - and since the city is wedged between undeveloped jungle and the ocean, to connect to the world-wide Matrix, it would need multiple towers connecting to satalite systems. Who controls those towers? How can they make a profit on them? This isn't a free public service! There isn't a government-maintained wireless system... Who the heck is crazy enough to want to build a new tower? And guarding that tower from scavengers, thieves, rival gangs, rival warlords, etc, would be a constant and expensive issue. So for areas that have a satalite hookup, the gangs/warlords/etc make sure they can profit on it somehow--generally by "taxing" anyone they see with a commlink. If you can't afford the 'tax' what do you think happens? The gang ends up with a commlink they can resell somewhere else.

Next, consider that a Mesh Network only works on active nodes - hidden and passive nodes do not function as a mesh-network router. People in Lagos don't walk around with their commlinks in active mode generally.

Add in that many commlinks in Lagos are DR 1, with a signal of 40 meters, and you'll see why the mesh network is said to fluxuate with the commutes and traffic--the mesh network exists on major thoroughfares, marketplaces, and more affluent neighborhoods, where there is enough active commlinks to connect back to a place with a tower. However, outside those areas, there's little electricity, and old-school vehicles without active nodes, hence, very few periphrial nodes, reducing the mesh-network even more. The further you go from the traffic-heavy areas (where people have commlinks in active mode, and hence, are part of the mesh-network), the fewer nodes there are in the mesh-network. At some point, it becomes unreliable enough to be unusable.

So, yes, some people in Lagos have commlinks. And yet, yes, the wireless Matrix sucks. And yes, an area with a strong wireless network at noon might have no mesh network after everyone goes home after dark.

[Demonseed Elite]

I still cannot fathom how on a continent that right now has more cell phones than landlines and has actually innovated new uses for cellphones that Lagos' wireless Matrix sucks. That's ridiculous and stupid.

Yes, they have more cell phones than land lines. And yes, their cell phone usage is innovative. That does not mean, however, that they have reliable cell phone service. For instance, read this article. Or this quote from wikitravel:

The mobile phone (cell phone) is an essential tool for virtually all urban - and most rural - Nigerians. Because of the instability of local networks, many people have two or even three "handsets", each on a different network.