[X] My Assistant

[Draxtier]

I'm still pretty new to SR4, and I'm just wondering if I understand the nature of the metamagic Quickening correctly. It seems like an incredibly cheap and efficient way to boost a characters power, duplicating some of the best augmentations in the game, but without any of the inherent drawbacks (high (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) cost, reduced essence, MAD scanners all over the place and issues with legality).

Is there a downside to loading a ton of enhancement magic on to your character and quickening it all? The cost in terms of karma seems negligible, relative to the potential gains.

The character I have now is an elf magician, of the shamanic tradition, made with the standard 400 BP creation rules. He started play with magic 5, charisma 6, willpower 5, spellcasting 6 and a force 4 power focus (gained with the restricted gear quality), and 2 points in the influence skill group. So, straight out of the gate I can roll 15 dice to cast spells and 11 dice to resist drain. I've been on a few runs and accumulated 20 karma. More than enough to initiate once.

My intention is to initiate and gain the quickening metamagic (which will cost 13 karma) then cast increase charisma on myself, at force 6, and quicken the spell (for 6 karma). The drain on Increase [Attribute] is (force/2)-2, so even though I have overcast it and the drain is physical, it's only a drain value of 1. I see no reason why I can't keep casting the spell until I manage to roll 6 hits on the spellcasting test with my 14 dice. I'm far more likely to get 6 hits than a glitch, and I can soak 1 drain with no trouble. Once quickened, I will be walking around with a charisma of 6(12), rolling 17 dice to resist drain, and 14 dice for any influence skills. That's a huge boost to the character's abilities, for 19 karma.

Another magician trying to dispell this effect needs to succeed in an opposed test, pitting their counterspelling + magic against the force of the spell + the magic it was cast at + karma used to render it permanent, which in this case is a total of 21 dice. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to just shoot me in the head, so dispelling isn't much of a concern.

The BBB states:

Spells cast upon an individual show up as a separate aura surrounding that person for the duration of the spell. Once a spell has been rendered permanent, the aura is no longer present. It is occasionally possible to see the traces that magic spells leave behind in a target’s aura; see Astral Signatures for more information.

So, while it's possible to perceive the spell with a high enough assensing roll, anyone managing to even detect it will also already know I'm a magician with a magic attribute of 5, making the quickened spell something of a non-issue.

After boosting charisma, I'll cast and quicken Increase Reflexes, to get 4 initiative passes, then I was thinking a force 9 Combat Sense would be useful. Quickening these two spells will cost another 13 karma, so I've spent a total of 32 karma and not a single (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Unlike cyberware and bioware, which has a built in limit, thanks to its essence cost, I can't find anything to limit quickened spells.

So why stop there? I can start casting quickened spells on the other runners in my team, giving them the best of cyber/bio enhancement and spells as well. Someone assensing my buddy might be able to detect the spell that's become part of his aura, and which bears my astral signature, but I doubt it's going to be as easy to spot, or as much of a concern, as the illegal cyberware and weapons strewn about his person.

Are there NPC magicians in the world that cast and quicken spells for a fee? If so, what's a reasonable price... and if you can get a permanent force 4 Increase Reflexes cast on your character in an afternoon, why would anyone ever get wired reflexes or a synaptic booster? Can I go in to business and subsidize my income this way? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Surely it can't be this good, and this easy to exploit. I have to be missing something... so, dumpshockers, what am I missing? Have these issues come up at your table, and how have you dealt with them?

[vollmond]

My understanding of Quickening is that it doesn't render a spell "permanent", as there are specific "permanent" spells. Quickened spells are still normal sustained spells - the only difference is that you don't have to think about them and they're a bit harder for the opponent to overcome.

They still light you up on the astral, and they still give you major problems if you need to pass through a ward or mana barrier - every ward or barrier you pass through (whether you're astrally perceiving or not) will result in an opposed test, and alert the creator of that ward to your presense. These are pretty huge downsides. Then, if the ward actually wins and dispels your spell, you're out the Karma it took to Quicken it in the first place.

[ElFenrir]

There is also the Masking-or Extended/Advanced/Improved masking(or something like that) that can help shield your quickened spell from a ward, making it easier for it to pass through. That being said, you need to also learn the Masking and Uber Masking metamagics(more karma for initiation), AND there is still a chance it will fizzle.

IMO, hell, go with the foci. it's cheaper and you can at least activate/deactivate them. (I'm not sure, but Masking might also help the foci get through the wards)?

[pbangarth]

Quickening is a powerful tool in the magician's arsenal. One advantage over Foci is that you can Quicken a spell of any Force, as long as you have the karma to spend. It may not be as good as it seems to you, though. Aside from the issues listed above, you should consider the following.

1)
Counterspelling a Quickened spell may not be able to get rid of it at one go, but net successes on the Counterspelling attempt do reduce the hits you received in the original casting. So, at the first shot, the Counterspelling mage may not be able to bring down your Increase Reflexes spell, but he may reduce its effectiveness from then on. Your karma is still spent, and the spell is that much closer to disruption the next time.

2)
Background count, generic or that set up by the Mana Static Spell, does affect Quickened spells. Though this effect is temporary, and the Quickening magic rebuilds itself once the area of background count is left, your comparison to implants should include the fact that implants keep working no matter what background count there is.

3)
Your idea to Quicken the whole team would make the bunch of you an incredibly attractive and delicious target for nasties that consume magic.

4)
How would you hide the fact that you (and your teammates?) are Powerful, Nasty and Dangerous if you wanted to go into a restaurant or meeting unobtrusively?

Peter

[Muspellsheimr]

The biggest issue is, as already stated, wards. If you have a Quickened spell, you cannot pass through a Ward without alerting the creator (barring Extended Masking, which requires Masking & is often difficult to use in this manner). This may also result in you being physically barred from passing, similar to a Dual-Natured creature.

If the spell ever ends for any reason, including you dismissing it, the spell ends permanently, & the Karma spent to Quicken it is lost. This also includes it being reduced to Force 0 through Background Count, most notably from Mana Static.

Finally, in Shadowrun, wards are everywhere. Most are low-Force & a non-issue if you alert the creator; they likely go off all the time. In secure environments however, such as many runs, tripping a ward will likely result in imprisonment or death.

[pbangarth]

If the spell ever ends for any reason, including you dismissing it, the spell ends permanently, & the Karma spent to Quicken it is lost. This also includes it being reduced to Force 0 through Background Count, most notably from Mana Static.

See Street Magic, p. 118: Quickened spells repair themselves once they exit the background count area.

Peter

[Draxtier]

My understanding of Quickening is that it doesn't render a spell "permanent"

Good call. I misinterpreted this.

There is also the Masking-or Extended/Advanced/Improved masking(or something like that) that can help shield your quickened spell from a ward, making it easier for it to pass through. That being said, you need to also learn the Masking and Uber Masking metamagics(more karma for initiation), AND there is still a chance it will fizzle.

This would work! I'd have to initiate twice more to gain masking and then extended masking, and then boost my magic attribute from 5 to 6, to mask a force 6 quickened spell. All told, this would end up costing me another 53 karma, for a total of 72 karma. So, this isn't cheap or easy, but it could work.

IMO, hell, go with the foci. it's cheaper and you can at least activate/deactivate them. (I'm not sure, but Masking might also help the foci get through the wards)?

This would work, but to pull off the same trick I was considering with Increase Charisma, I would need to spend 60,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to buy the appropriate foci, which has an availability of 24R, then spend 12 karma to bind it. It can be done, and would let me drop the spell at will, to go unnoticed, or slip by wards, but it doesn't seem either as cheap or easy as just quickening it.

1)
Counterspelling a Quickened spell may not be able to get rid of it at one go, but net successes on the Counterspelling attempt do reduce the hits you received in the original casting. So, at the first shot, the Counterspelling mage may not be able to bring down your Increase Reflexes spell, but he may reduce its effectiveness from then on. Your karma is still spent, and the spell is that much closer to disruption the next time.

While another magician could conceivably try dispelling the spell, they'd have a hell of a hard time scoring even one net success against the 21 dice pool in the scenario I described. Sure it could be done, but my character would immediately be aware of the attempt and start taking measures to stop the other magician. The only way I can see the quickened spell being dispelled is if my character is rendered unconscious and a powerful magician goes to work on them on their leisure. If that happens, getting my Increase Charisma dispelled is the least of my worries.

2)
Background count, generic or that set up by the Mana Static Spell, does affect Quickened spells. Though this effect is temporary, and the Quickening magic rebuilds itself once the area of background count is left, your comparison to implants should include the fact that implants keep working no matter what background count there is.

Hadn't thought of that! It's a good point and a fair consideration.

3)
Your idea to Quicken the whole team would make the bunch of you an incredibly attractive and delicious target for nasties that consume magic.

Also a good point!

4)
How would you hide the fact that you (and your teammates?) are Powerful, Nasty and Dangerous if you wanted to go into a restaurant or meeting unobtrusively?

The answer to this question is "Not very well". Anyone assensing such a team would perceive the active auras of the spells. Generally speaking though, I think there's a greater proliferation of the means of detecting illegal or restricted cybertech and weapons, than there are awakened NPCs scouting the astral. If it's a question of who is the more unobtrusive, comparing me with my perfectly legal force 6 sustained spell and my buddy with his 20F move-by-wire 2 cybertech, I think I win.

Wards seem like the main problem, and will probably keep my character from taking the quick, easy, munchkin road to power and profit. Muspellsheimr summed them up nicely. Though I still feel like the game designers haven't adequately addressed the possibility of people wanting to run around with quickened spells in the same way they've explored other means of augmentation, and how those methods of upgrading a character are dealt with in society.

[KCKitsune]

Slightly off topic, but relevant anyways... that was the reason I went with a Synaptic Booster for my combat mage rather than a spell lock with Improved Reflexes. That booster will just work. I can go anywhere and it won't fail. It's also a stone bitch for anyone to know that I have it since it is bioware rather than cyber.

[Muspellsheimr]

Sure it could be done, but my character would immediately be aware of the attempt and start taking measures to stop the other magician.

Incorrect. You are only aware if the spell is dispelled - aka ends. You are not automatically aware of dispelling attempts if they fail to end the spell, even if they successfully reduce the spell's Hits.

See Street Magic, p. 118: Quickened spells repair themselves once they exit the background count area.

While a valid interpretation, I must disagree. When a Quickened spell is disrupted, it is gone permanently. Something can only be repaired if there is something left to be repaired. The reference to the wards & Quickened spells repairing themselves is in reference to those that have had their Force reduced, but have not been disrupted.

[pbangarth]

OK, reading the whole paragraph closely leads me to see your point, Muspellheimer.

Peter

[Draxtier]

Incorrect. You are only aware if the spell is dispelled - aka ends. You are not automatically aware of dispelling attempts if they fail to end the spell, even if they successfully reduce the spell's Hits.

No, I'm pretty sure I had that one right.

The caster of a sustained or quickened spell that is targeted by dispelling is automatically aware of the attempt.

[Muspellsheimr]

Okay, I was looking under the Quickening metamagic, where that is not specified.

[Ragewind]

To the OP,

Why cast a Force 6 spell and pay 6 Karma? Why not just use a Force 1 spell and tack on edge to potentially gain more than 6 hits. That way you can dump 6 more spells on yourself like Increased reflexes and whatever else suits your fancy for little to no karma invested.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

A spell's force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the spellcasting test. (SR4 p.171)

[Draxtier]

To the OP,

Why cast a Force 6 spell and pay 6 Karma? Why not just use a Force 1 spell and tack on edge to potentially gain more than 6 hits. That way you can dump 6 more spells on yourself like Increased reflexes and whatever else suits your fancy for little to no karma invested.

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count.

In the case of the spell I want to cast, Increase [Attribute] it requires that you cast it at a force at least as high as the (augmented) attribute. So, to increase my characters charisma, which was already at 6, I need to cast a spell of at least force 6. Since he's an elf and can get an augmented charisma of 12, if I score 6 hits on the casting test I double that attribute with one spell.

edit: wind_in_the_stone beat me to it.

[Muspellsheimr]

Edge Dice are not limited to the spell's Force. Stupid rule, but it's RAW.

[Glyph]

Edge Dice are not limited to the spell's Force. Stupid rule, but it's RAW.

Correct, although some spells, such as the Increase [Attribute] spell, are limited by the Force they are cast at, as well as by their number of hits.

The biggest weakness of using Edge to help quicken a Force: 1 spell is that it is still a Force: 1 spell, so even the lowest background count could disrupt it. And the spell uses Force x 2 for the opposed test if it is forced through an astral barrier.

[KCKitsune]

Also, why would you waste Edge on something so... minor? If you're going to blow Edge on something make it *GRAND*!

[Dragnar]

As you'd cast the spell in your downtime and the edge would refresh before you need it next anyway, nothing would be "wasted".
The point that a force 1 spell is way to easily disrupted by random magical effects still stands, though.

All in all, quickening is way more cost effective than paying half a million nuyen for the chrome versions, but it's far from perfect and has it's own fair share of disadvantages.

[HentaiZonga]

Also remember, if you pay (Force x 1,000) nuyen in Quickening Materials and (Force x 3) Karma, you can make a Quickened spell practically undispellable. One thing I occasionally do for my really "important" spells is go ahead and overcast them at Force 12, using Ritual Magic and Edge to guarantee a large number of successes, and pour 6,000 Nuyen and 36 Karma into them. Sure, the drain hurts, but you generally do it during the sort of down-time where you'd be healing from cyber-implant or bio-implant damage anyways. And 36 Karma for +3 IP or a maximum augmented attribute is a pretty good deal.

At Force 12, you wind up resisting 8P Drain for Increase Reflexes and 4P Drain for Increase (Attribute). But you also wind up with fourty eight dice for your spell to resist disruption from dispelling, passing through wards, or what have you. (If I were the GM, of course, I'd immediately slap the "Astral Beacon" Quality on the character, because come on). At 48 dice, though, you can basically just have the spell "buy hits" and give the counterspelling mage an effective Threshold of 12.

Also, remember that just about any powerful Triad or Yakuza clan is going to do this. They will have a wujen, that wujen will learn Quickening from his sifu, and he will be put to work making the "favored thugs" a force to be reckoned with.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Also, why would you waste Edge on something so... minor? If you're going to blow Edge on something make it *GRAND*!

I think that having a 12 charisma is pretty grand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As you'd cast the spell in your downtime and the edge would refresh before you need it next anyway, nothing would be "wasted".

In many games, edge is refreshed at the end of scenes, rather than the beginning. So if you use edge during downtime, you don't get it back for your first mission. Just a little something to keep people from abusing their edge for improvement rolls.

[HentaiZonga]

I think that having a 12 charisma is pretty grand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Indeed it is, especially since it's full augmentation, which means it boosts the number of spirits you can keep around. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

Basically it all boils down to, yes quickened spells are very powerful and can do a lot for not a great deal of karma, but they still suffer from all the problems of sustained spells, save the -2 penalty to all actions.

Personally, I just use sustaining foci.

[HentaiZonga]

A rules question I've had on Spell Quickening:

Is there any precedent for allowing the spell's recipient to pay part or all the Karma to Quicken the spell, rather than the casting mage? It seems like this would make sense in many cases (like attribute-boosting Health Spells).

[pbangarth]

Not in any regular usage. The magician with Quickening has to pay the cost.

But I suppose if a magician had the ability to accept karma from the subject (ie. spirit pact?), then the caster of the spell and Quickening could use that karma.

Peter