Direct Combat Spells, Auto hit? Options

[Stormdrake]

So question on Direct Combat Spell rules on pg. 195. The BBB says that DCS are handled as oppossed tests. My understanding of this is that the caster rolls to hit and the defender rolls the appropriate stat plus counterspelling to resist. If the caster wins the target takes full damage plus additional successes unresisted? Is this right? It really does not match withthe rest of the (Non-magic) combat system, so wanted to duoble check.

[Muspellsheimr]

That is correct.

[Dragnar]

Which means that yes, direct combat spells are more effective than pistol shots, especially if your target doesn't have any counterspelling. Firing a pistol doesn't hurt yourself, however and is only a simple action.

[Stormdrake]

Thank you,
Thought that that was correct but wanted to check.

[jago668]

Also the SOP isn't geek the guy with the pistol first.

[TheOOB]

You take damage so you still get a wound check, it just says that armor doesn't apply, at least thats how I've always interpenetrated it.

Example: Bob the mage has a magic of 5 and a spellcasting of 4, and casts a manabolt at force 5 at joe who has a body of 4 and a willpower of 3. Bob rolls an opposed spellcasting+magic agienst joe's willpower(it's a mana spell). Bob gets 4 hits and joe gets 2 hits, so the manabolt is successful with 2 net successes for 7P damage. Joe then resists this damage with his body of 4, getting 3 hits taking 4 damage overall.

The opposed check is just testing to see if your spell hits or not, and how good of a hit it is, you always get a damage resistance test, even if you're helpless.

[Muspellsheimr]

Incorrect. There is absolutely no Damage Resistance Test after the initial Spell Resistance Test. If you fail your Spell Resistance, you take full damage.

[Hagga]

A few gms will houserule that you swap elemental spell drain and direct spell drain because of the power differential.

[Speed Wraith]

Incorrect. There is absolutely no Damage Resistance Test after the initial Spell Resistance Test. If you fail your Spell Resistance, you take full damage.

Huh? Do you have a source to back that up? Pages 139-140 in the core rulebook, which detail the sequence of combat indicates to me that a victim of an attack always receives a damage resistance test. I haven't seen anything that creates and exception for spells and the examples listed in the grimoire specifically notes a resistance test. Sure, that exact example is an indirect spell, but again, I never see anything stating that direct combat spells bypass the resistance test. If that isn't the way it is supposed to be, let me be sure my group knows that (though there is no way in hell I'd run my game like that - spellcasting is way too nasty as it is).

[kzt]

No, direct combat spells violate several generally established understandings for the game, as well as the actual rules.

Despite the fact that casting a direct spell on an object is a success test, it doesn't follow the rules for success tests on page 56.

[Speed Wraith]

Yeah, but can anyone point me to a rulebook, errata or official answer from here on DS that says this? Everything in the book seems to indicate that a mana bolt (for instance) is just like any other weapon/attack in the game. You attack the target, the target opposes the attack. Then if the attack hits you calculate damage and the targets resists the damage.

Also, how does the success test for objects not follow the normal rules?

Is my .pdf copy of the rules broken? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[vollmond]

SR4 pg. 173

The
target resists physical spells with Body and mana spells with
Willpower. If the target is also protected by Counterspelling
(p. 175), she may add Counterspelling dice to this resistance

So it's an odd amalgamation of a resistance test and an Opposed (to-hit) test. If the target gets enough hits to match or exceed the caster's hits, then the spell fizzles. If they do not, then their hits count as their resistance test.

This helps illuminate the fact that direct combat spells are not similar to firearms attacks. You are not aiming and shooting - if you can see your target, you are directly magically affecting them - the target can't dodge, but they may inherently have more resistance to magical attacks.

I hope some of this made sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

SR4 pg. 173


So it's an odd amalgamation of a resistance test and an Opposed (to-hit) test. If the target gets enough hits to match or exceed the caster's hits, then the spell fizzles. If they do not, then their hits count as their resistance test.

This helps illuminate the fact that direct combat spells are not similar to firearms attacks. You are not aiming and shooting - if you can see your target, you are directly magically affecting them - the target can't dodge, but they may inherently have more resistance to magical attacks.

I hope some of this made sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except that ranged attacks are opposed checks. If you get equal to or greater hits with your reaction then they got with their agility+skill roll, you don't get hit. You still have to make a damage resistance test after you get hit even after the opposed test.

Besides, direct combat spells mention quite clearly that armor doesn't apply, and since armor only applies on damage resistance tests and implies a damage resistance test takes place. Unless otherwise stated you always get a damage resistance test when you take damage, some things can change the exact numbers of a test(electricity uses half impact armor, drain is resisted with willpower+mental stat, not body, ect), but you always get the test.

[vollmond]

That's what I'm saying - the target's body/willpower + counterspelling IS the damage resistance test, with the extra feature that if they resist more than the caster's hits' worth of damage, the spell fizzles. It's a ranged attack that they cannot dodge, but that's counterbalanced by the fact that they can negate the damage without actually resisting it all.

Note that the rules for INdirect combat spells specifically says that they do get normal dodge and resistance tests - in contrast with direct combat spells. Indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged attack with -half AP. This is called out as different from direct combat spells (SR4 pg. 196)

[Speed Wraith]

Yeah, that is one of the weird bits of wording that confused me and my group for a while, but seeing as there is nothing that says that you don't get to resist the damage as normal we chucked it up to bad editing...I would like to note that pg 152 includes spells (without a distinction between direct and indirect) along with "guns, explosions, bladed weapons". Nowhere in the section on damage does it indicate any form of attack ignores the resistance test, although it does mention that damage is typically resisted using body plus armor rating. Armor is out in the resistance test, per page 196, but it is never stated that direct combat spells are the exception to the rules.

So I'm unswayed...since magic is still way overpowered (and it should be, really!) I see no reason to make it even MORE powerful by skipping the damage resistance test. I would still love to hear from someone who can officially answer the question just because I'm curious, but I can't possibly believe that direct combat spells, and only direct combat spells don't allow a damage resistance test when everything else that causes damage in the game (including indirect combat spells) does...

And I'm not trying to be a jerk, it is simply that this was a confusing issue for my group when we first started learning the current rules, I made a ruling that the rest of my group agreed with so I'm sticking with it, but it'd be nice to know if we're totally wrong...

[Magus]

SR4 BBB
Pg. 167 Sidebar “The Nature of Mana�
Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana
fi eld by a magician, who shapes it in certain ways for certain
effects. A good metaphor for this is to equate the mana fi eld
with the airwaves, making the use of Sorcery the transmission
of certain radio signals that create different effects. To
cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and
transmits it on a specifi c frequency. The act of channeling
is fatiguing to a magician, and causes drain. The signal that
the magician creates is based on a spell formula that the
magician has learned, determining its form and effect. The
target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is
sent on the target’s frequency. When the signal is received, it
channels mana through the target to create a specifi ed effect
(thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they
affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same
plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.
Area-effect spells work roughly the same way, except
that instead of transmitting a signal to one target, the caster
sends the signal out on multiple frequencies corresponding
with the targets within the area of effect. If there are targets
within the area that the caster cannot see, they will not be
affected, because the caster cannot synchronize with them
to transmit the spell signal on a frequency they will receive.

SR4 BBB
Pg. 173 Determine Effect
Spells cast on living or magic targets are oft en resisted,
and an Opposed Test is required. For area spells, the magician
rolls only once, and each target resists the spell separately. Th e
target resists physical spells with Body and mana spells with
Willpower.

Example from pg.174
A go-ganger is about to ride Raze down on
his motorbike, so Raze casts a Powerbolt at her. He
chooses Force 5 and rolls his Magic 5 + Spellcasting
4 (9 dice), and gets 4 hits. The ganger rolls her Body 3 to resist, and gets only 1. The base damage of the
Powerbolt is 5, increased by the net hits to 8—ouch!
The Drain Code for the Powerbolt is (F ÷ 2) + 1,
so Raze must resist 3 DV, rolling his Willpower +
Logic (he’s a mage).

Combat Spells Pg 195-196
Combat spells use mana to create damaging eff ects, either
by direct or indirect means. Direct Combat spells channel
damaging power directly into the target’s inner being, aff ecting
them from within, and so bypass armor. Indirect Combat
spells create an external damaging medium (oft en elemental in
nature) that is used to attack the target.
Direct Combat Spells: Handle these as an Opposed
Test. Th e caster’s Magic + Spellcasting is resisted by the target’s
Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana spells), plus
Counterspelling (if available). Th e caster needs at least one net hit for the spell to take eff ect. Direct Combat spells aff ect the
target from the inside, so armor does not help with resistance.

[Speed Wraith]

See, still nothing that states you don't get a damage resistance test. I want it stated explicitly if that is in fact the case. I seriously doubt you don't get one though, especially since the power bolt example above says the spell generates a "base damage" and not "final" damage value. Base DV changes to final DV after the damage resistance test, when the final damage is recorded. This also tracks with the Effect of the spell. The effect of a cast and resisted mana bolt could potentially (for instance) a base DV of 7. That's the effect, producing damage. Damage is damage, so now you have to resist the damage you've taken.

Here is the crux of my argument:
All combat (astral, physical, matrix) is handled with the same procedure. If direct combat spells were the exception to the rule, why isn't it spelled out that it doesn't allow a damage resistance test?

[Brigandier]

I'm not sure if I'm right on this or not, but in reading the go-ganger/powerbolt example above, it would seem that the 'to-hit' roll is also the resistance roll as it were. What I get from that example is that yes, the direct combat spell will indeed auto hit as long as there are any number of net hits on the test. The mage isn't so much rolling to hit as he's rolling to see if anything happens at all. In the example if the Go-Ganger had gotten the same number of hits or more than Raze, then the powerbolt would have merely fizzled and nothing would have happened at all, but because he did get net hits the spell resolves and the go-ganger takes damage. I could be wrong, but it simply seems that direct combat rolls forgo attempting to hit at all and just move straight to a damage resistance test to determine effect in which you either fully resist the spell or you just get blasted in the face.

[pbangarth]

EDIT: Brigandier already said much the same.

Peter

[RedeemerofOgar]

See, still nothing that states you don't get a damage resistance test. I want it stated explicitly if that is in fact the case. I seriously doubt you don't get one though, especially since the power bolt example above says the spell generates a "base damage" and not "final" damage value. Base DV changes to final DV after the damage resistance test, when the final damage is recorded. This also tracks with the Effect of the spell. The effect of a cast and resisted mana bolt could potentially (for instance) a base DV of 7. That's the effect, producing damage. Damage is damage, so now you have to resist the damage you've taken.

Here is the crux of my argument:
All combat (astral, physical, matrix) is handled with the same procedure. If direct combat spells were the exception to the rule, why isn't it spelled out that it doesn't allow a damage resistance test?

The crux of your argument is that the editing, and indeed the general writing of the rules, in SR4 is shite. That is indisputable. However, your argument in no way provides the ANSWER to your original question. In fact, the SR4 rules seem to have been written by brain-damaged monkeys who on a number of occasions assume that you are familiar with all of the rules from SR3, and wrote SR4 to expand on 3 instead of replace it. Given that, when a dispute like this comes up, I tend to refer back to SR3.

In SR3, Indirect spells were called "elemental manipulation spells." You cast a spell with a Sorcery Test. Elemental spells were treated like normal ranged attacks using Sorcery as the Ranged Combat Skill and following all ranged modifiers, and were dodgeable and affected by armor. "Living targets may always make a Spell Resistance Test against spells, unless the target of the spell is willing. The target makes a Resistance Test using the targeted Attribute (usually Body, Intelligence or Willpower)... For elemental spells, the Resistance Test is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as described under Ranged Combat... the caster's successes are compared to the successes generated by the target. If the target generated the same number or more successes, the spell odes not affect the target. If the caster generates more successes, the spell has an effect. The spell's effect is measured as the diference between the caster's successes and the target's." - SR3BBB, p.183

CONCLUSION: Given that you are playing SR4 not SR3, and given that SR4 rules are poorly written, and given that everyone's game is different, you may houserule however you wish. It is nonetheless clear from both the SR4 examples and wording, and the SR3 precedent, that the INTENTION was to have targets make only a single test, using Body or Willpower, vs a Direct Combat Spell.

Game on!

[Muspellsheimr]

Tycho litte rulequestion: Is it right, that I get a Damage Resistence Test (without Armor), if I get hit by a direct combat spell and fail the Spell Resistence Test?
Bobby Derie Yes, that is correct.

I happened to be dealing with 20 other questions and passed this question (amongst others) on to him. This time he made a mistake and I didn't catch it (either in the chat or before posting the pdf).

<-Bobby

I goofed. It happens, and I'm very sorry it happened in the chat. Trying to answer questions as quickly as possible does that to you.

Source Thread

There is absolutely no additional Damage Resistance Test to a Direct spell after the initial Spell Resistance Test.

[kzt]

Also, how does the success test for objects not follow the normal rules?

Success tests have to exceed the threshold. Magic doesn't work this way.

Notice the two highlighted sections below:

Page 56: Thresholds
Hits represent a measure of achievement on a test. In order to succeed completely on a Success Test, you must meet or
exceed a gamemaster-determined threshold with your hits. The higher the threshold, the more difficult an action is. The standard threshold is 1 (so only 1 hit is necessary to succeed), though other tests may have a threshold as high as 4. The Difficulty Table lists a range of difficulty levels along with a standard threshold for each. In some cases, a threshold modifier may apply to an action, raising or lowering the threshold by the stated amount.

The more net hits a character scores (the more hits exceed the threshold), the more the task was pulled off with finesse
and flair. So a character who rolls 4 hits on a threshold 2 test has scored 2 net hits.

Page 173: Step 5: Determine Effect
Some spells simply require a Success Test, with hits determining the level of success (as noted in the spell description). The Magic + Spellcasting test must generate at least one net hit to succeed and may need more if the effect has a threshold for success.


Page 174 Example
A go-ganger is about to ride Raze down on his motorbike, so Raze casts a Powerbolt at her. He chooses Force 5 and rolls his Magic 5 + Spellcasting 4 (9 dice), and gets 4 hits....

If Raze had targeted the bike instead of the ganger, his 4 hits would have been enough to reach the threshold of 4, as a motorbike counts as a highly-processed object. Since nonliving objects cannot resist against Directed Combat spells, the bike would have taken 5 DV from the spell (Raze didn’t score any net hits over the threshold to raise the damage).

[TheOOB]

I suppose we have word of god on the subject. Oh well, I suppose now our group just uses that as a houserule, C'est la vie.

[Speed Wraith]

That's what I was looking for, thanks Muspellsheimr!

And agreed TheOOB: HR that sucker in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Malachi]

Direct Combat Spells are why Counterspelling is so, SO, SOOOO important in SR4. All Sammies with low WIL should be pointing their Ingram at their team's mage until he activates Counterspelling.

Under SR3 it was even more in the Mage's favour. Counterspelling had to be pre-declared from Spell Pool at the beginning of the combat, which many Magicians forgot to do, or neglected to do because they wanted to save the Pool for their Casting tests or their Drain tests. Thus an attacking mage simply rolled a Spellcasting test against the target's Willpower as the target number. Generally, this meant 6 dice against TN 3 or 4 (on average). Again, in SR3 this was the damage resistance test. Oh and that attacking Mage probably threw his Spell Pool into the attack. What's that? Combat Pool? Sorry not for this action, you can only use your Mage's Spell Pool dice that he allocated for Counterspelling. He didn't? Tough nuts to you. Even if the friendly mage did allocate Counterspelling dice, they actually went away as they were used. So if the Mage allocated 6 dice for Counterspelling, and someone used 4 before you, then you only had 2 left. After that, everyone was out of luck.

I have seen the average hits on Direct Combat spells actually go down in SR4.