[X] My Assistant

[hobgoblin]

if its only vehicles involved, use chase combat rules. and at that point, speed is a non-issue.

and they did it this way becase people complained about having to recalculate stuff each turn when vehicles where involved in SR3...

and the rules will put cool ahead of physics...

[kigmatzomat]

That's because the Sr3 mechanics in Rigger3 were apparently written by a battletech fan who loved dice rolling for the sake of dice rolling. The maneuver score was one of the most unnecessary bit of rules mechanics ever to be published.

And the Sr4 rules have weird crap like the "chase slingshot" which are sooooo much better. Things would have been so much easier had they simply had the chase mechanic be tracked per pursuer against the chasee. That eliminates the slingshot.

I'd be happy if the rules put playability ahead of physics or coolness.

[The Jake]

Actually, your numbers are way off on SR4 vehicle performance. Lets take our test driver, Dangerous Dan Davis (with a whooping 9 dice) and stick him in a Eurocar Westwind 3000. The EW3k gives +3 dice, so he has a dice pool of 12. On hard acceleration, he will get 4 success on average. That equals +20m/turn of acceleration, or 80. Netting him roughly 60mph in 3 seconds. That is pretty damn fast. However, SR4 has flat acceleration. So he will hit 100mph in 5 seconds. Now that is insanely fast (faster than every car currently in existence but the SSC Ultimate Aero TT). Hell, he will hit just shy of 180mph in 9 seconds. That is *CRAZY* fast!

And the Speed rating is not a vehicles top speed according to RAW. The speed rating is the top speed the vehicle can achieve without getting penalties on handling. How much over that is purely the GMs call. I use 25% over, with Accel cut in half, and all required successes for an action doubled in my games (since by RAW, it is the GMs choice). Which would mean in my games, based on my standard call, still according to RAW, the EW3k can hit nearly 225mph in 13.5 seconds.

If you do the math, the EW3k can run the 1/4 mile in about 8.028 seconds at ~159.568mph. Faster then every production car in existence.

Too crazy for you? Ok, let me pull out a slightly less crazy vehicle, the Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit. It is a gas/electric hybrid subcompact car.

Same guy driving, so he will only average 3 success a turn in this car. Base Accel is 35, +15 for his roll. That gives a base 50m, or roughly 12.5mph @ second of acceleration, up to the vehicles top "good handling" speed of 90mph. This cheap little subcompact will do 0-60mph in ~4.8 seconds and 0-90mph in ~7.2 seconds. That is fast enough to make it a pretty damn good sports car in acceleration by today's standards. Using my as GM choice (by RAW) of top speed = Speed rating x1.25, the car will top out at around 112mph. So we can figure out a 0-100 time to compare to current cars today, ~8.8 seconds.

Cars in existence today that have 0-100mph times of 8.8 seconds or slower include: Ford GT, Porsche 911 GT3 RS 997, Porsche 911 Turbo 996, Lamborghini Murcielago 6.2, Lamborghini Gallardo, TVR Tuscan S, Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, Chevrolet Corvette, etc etc...

Seriously, you have no idea just how fast the vehicles in SR4 are capable of accelerating. I actually put a max cap on acceleration success of Running Accel/10 (round up).

A Bugatti Veyron can do 0-100mph in 5.5 seconds.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bugatti-veyron...ph-contest.html

At the end of the day, speed in vehicles is a relative term.

A Jackrabbit may be able to outpace a Skyline, but if you have to outpace a Westwind, you're still in the shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

- J.

[hobgoblin]

And the Sr4 rules have weird crap like the "chase slingshot" which are sooooo much better. Things would have been so much easier had they simply had the chase mechanic be tracked per pursuer against the chasee. That eliminates the slingshot.

how about putting the chasers into a group?

or do you insist on doing mixed chases where there is both large and small vehicles involved?

ok, that was a bit harsh.

thing is that the maneuver score made sense, and have one item that was changed each turn. another changed when the GM said so, and the other two where static.

pen, paper and a scratch pad and its no worse then tracking initiative scores.

as for slingshot effect, im not 100% sure what thats a reference to. the effect of having your vehicle be close range to something thats long range to something else, that you again is at extreme range of?

[InfinityzeN]

A Bugatti Veyron can do 0-100mph in 5.5 seconds.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bugatti-veyron...ph-contest.html

At the end of the day, speed in vehicles is a relative term.

A Jackrabbit may be able to outpace a Skyline, but if you have to outpace a Westwind, you're still in the shit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

- J.

Just wondering where the Bugatti Veyron doing 0-100mph in 5.5 seconds came from? I stated that the EW3k can do it in ~5 seconds flat, with only one car in the world faster (SSC Ultimate Aero TT).

On a different note...
Thinking about the ft/lbs a liter, I would set the ~100 ft/lbs to sport bikes and race cars, the ~110 to drag built vehicles
On the RPMs, I would drop it to x1.5~2 for standard/sport, x2~2.5 for race or heavy modified, and 18k to 24k as the range for sport bikes.

[nylanfs]

I was just reading in Popular Science this year (or was it last) about an innovative derailer system for a bike. And it got me to thinking that it could adapted for powered 9other than human power) vehicles. It gave what was an almost infinite gearbox. I'll see if I can dig up the references for it.


Here they are

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/flat/bown/200...on/item_98.html

[kigmatzomat]

how about putting the chasers into a group?
or do you insist on doing mixed chases where there is both large and small vehicles involved?

thing is that the maneuver score made sense, and have one item that was changed each turn. another changed when the GM said so, and the other two where static.

pen, paper and a scratch pad and its no worse then tracking initiative scores.

Insist? No, but it tends to happen quite a lot, especially when players are doing the pursuit since they'd often have an aerial drone to keep tabs over buildings.

The maneuver score added nothing of value to the system. You make an extra die roll outside the normal turn that involves numbers based on previous actions (speed component) which requires division. Oh, and if you do have a mix of aerial and ground vehicles the terrain modifiers aren't the same. The result of the die roll and math do nothing on their own. Instead they add a whole array of new modifier tables that requires you to compare the various drivers' rolls.

Great, another die roll and four new tables to reference. Oh and for extra confusion, the Positioning table doesn't actually use the Maneuver score. Yay, a mechanic that isn't universal even within its subsystem.

as for slingshot effect, im not 100% sure what thats a reference to. the effect of having your vehicle be close range to something thats long range to something else, that you again is at extreme range of?

Have you read the SR4 chase rules ad actually considered them? The important sentence is on p.161 "At the beginning of each Chase Combat Turn, each driver makes a Vehicle Test. The winner chooses the Engagement Range he will have against all vehicles that scored fewer hits than he did." E.g. Bob is fleeing Gangers Greg, Gary, and Guy. Last round Bob was at Long range and trying to escape. Bob gets 4 successes, Greg gets 1 and Gary botches. Guy, however, is a lucky snot and gets 5 successes and declares that all vehicles will be at Close range to him. Even if Gary crashes from his botch, he does so within medium shooting range of Bob, if not ramming range.


The simple fix IMO that uses existing mechanics and concepts is basically to set an extended net success threshold for the escapee modified by terrain classification for ranges & escape. If the thresholds were say, close <=2 net successes, short <=4 net successes, Long <=6 net successes and Escape at 8+ net successes. For the dice above and assuming everyone started at close range, Bob would be at close range to Guy (-1 net successes), close to Greg (3 net successes) and at short range to Gary (4 successes). If the same results were rolled next round, Guy would be glued to Bob (-2 net successes), Bob will be at Long range to Greg (+6 net successes) and Bob will be completely out of sight of Gary (8 successes).

[hobgoblin]

so your basic issue with the rules is that there no single objective range that allows you to spread out all the vehicles over some imaginary map?

how about this:

the chase turn is 20 seconds long (or something of that nature). could it be that your not setting the distance for that whole turn, but stating that at some point during those 20 seconds you will attempt to attain a specific distance, or set of distances, between your opponents and yourself, this in time for your team mates to benefit.

the chase turn is not a static turn like the normal combat turn can be if everyone heads for cover, every vehicle is moving in some direction or other continually unless everyone slams the breaks, and at that time one drops into normal combat turns.

[ornot]

I've never much liked the movement rates used in SR4. The rules for vehicles seemed quite strange with this odd walking and running rates business. Even the walking and running rates for characters on foot are kinda wiggy. It's one of only a few areas where I literally throw the RAW out the window, and just go with what sounds right to me.

I rather like Zen's explanation of engine power and extrapolations to 2070. It's a little too technical for me to use in game though. I quite like cars, but I've not really got the time, cash, or opportunity to have much hands on experience with tuning or racing. The closest I get is Forza 2.

[InfinityzeN]

^^^
Thanks. The tech was just my thinking about how things would build from now to 2070, trying to get my head wrapped around it. I know it is very techy. Easy things to remember and use though: Vehicles are lighter, with smaller more efficient engines that rev very high. That should cover everything in very easy terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for vehicle rules and such, I have some that I've been using and playtesting. They allow you to work from the standard stat line, provide acceleration and deceleration performance, the vehicles max speed, and use a different set of chase rules.

Chase rules should only really be used when the vehicles are close to each other in performance or in traffic. For example, on a wide open road with no other traffic, I don't care how good a driver you are, your not going to catch or keep up with that Eurocar Westwind 3000 in your Ford Americar.

[ornot]

I'd be interested in seeing those rules. Do you have them hosted anyplace, or can I prevail upon you to send me a copy? If you fancy it, PM me.

At least 2 of my players do riggery stuff, and while I've been handwaving things for the most part, and using success tests vs manouveur and terrain thresholds from the BBB table, it could be fun to implement a car chase through the streets.

I suppose, given the origins of SR in the 80's when peak oil was only of interest to academics, it is not unreasonable for the combustion engine to be the mainstay of transportation. But have you thought about applying oil free tech to vehicles? In keeping with the updating of SR4, I've been encouraging my players to think in terms of most cars running on hydrogen cells, or some form of biofuel. It's not particularly important, but how would that affect performance?

[InfinityzeN]

Actually, I stated that the fuel wasn't from "out of the ground Oil".

If you haven't looked into it yet, there are currently microbs that can produce a 'light sweet' crude oil from organic garbage. The cost today per barrel from their small scale testing is crazy high (severl grand each), but calculated down to $30~50 a barrel with large scale production when possible. Their figuring 10 to 20 years.

So I took petro made from that, plus some very high grade ethol (made from organic waste again, not some food crop which is stupid) to crank up the octane and cooling properties and that is the most common fuel used. Carbon negative (it uses more carbon to be created then released by burning it), renewable, and made from garbage.

Hydrogen cells are cool, but don't use an already existing distro method. Their also a little more dangerous and don't provide the same energy density. Meanwhile, petro and petro like fuels can use the existing infrastructure and run in old vehicles perfectly fine. Classics might require a little tinkering but they can still be fairly easily moddified to run on it.

As for the rules, I don't have em in digits at the moment though I can take my notes and shoot you a message the roughed out ones when I get home. I was planning on giving it more testing time before posting them. But if your group doesn't mind, I'll give em to you so that you can try them out as well.

[ornot]

I don't know how my players will react to it, but I'll check 'em out, and pass 'em round and see what they think.

Apologies; I saw the part about biofuels, but figured you meant adding them to fossil oil to stretch the supply. I had heard about plans to make oil from garbage, but I didn't think it was sufficiently similar to fossil oil to be refined and put through cars. I guess you know what you're talking about re: blending with alcohols and such to produce something good enough to run a high performance engine on. I'm not really terribly familiar with what you can potentially put through an engine and have it still run, or how one would tinker with it to run on something with a different octane number or viscosity etc.

IRL I've high hopes for the hydrogen economy. Sure it'll require an update to the infrastructure, but AFAIK it's clean burning and highly efficient, which should go some way to make up for its lower energy density.

[InfinityzeN]

Just for you ornot

zeN's Vehicle & Chase Rules

[fctarbox3]

Why the mixing of unit systems?

Actually, application-specific units are very popular in the US-customary and Imperial systems. For example, you can measure volumes of wine in terms of tuns, but not other liquids. And of course oil is measured in barrels. So why can't the customary unit for engine size be the liter? Makes sense to me, no mixing of unit systems here.

[kigmatzomat]

Here's my quick chase combat system.

[ Spoiler ]

Chase Combat Opposed Extended Test.
Defender (escapee) needs to achieve a number of net successes against their pursuers to escape. The number of net successes determine the range between the defender and their pursuers. The number of net successes required is listed on the conditions table, below. Chasee's net successes are tracked per pursuer. Any time the defender reaches the Escape threshold against a pursuer, that pursuer has lost track of the Chasee.

Relative Speed modifier
For virtually all urban conditions, compare the pursuer's acceleration (run) to that of the chasee. Pursuers get +1 for every 5 they exceed the chasee, -1 for every 5 they are below the chasee.

Under most Exposed conditions at ranges beyond close, Speed is usually more important. Pursuers get +1 for every 10 they exceed the chasee, -1 for every 10 they are below the chasee.


close med long escape
ideal >=1 2 3 4
0-50m -100 -200 -300m

typical >=2 3..4 5..6 8
0-50m -300 -500 -750m

exposed >=3 4..6 7..9 12
0-50m -500 -1km 2km+

Conditions:
Ideal
Lots escape routes with short line of sight. Could be downtown at 2pm, an old growth forest, sensor-occluding bad weather, aircraft in (urban) canyons, etc.

Typical
Moderate lines of sight, limited escape routes. Most roads, rough seas, cloudy skies

Exposed
Very long line of sight with limited escape options. Freeways beyond sprawls, deserts, clear skies, open ocean or trains.


Corner cases
Multiple Pursuers:
A pursuer that has lost their target vehicle can choose to follow an ally. The ally does NOT make a separate Chase test, meaning they cannot make it easier for the pursuer without losing the target. Note the pursuer should recalculate their relative speed modifier against their new chasee.

Air vs ground pursuit
Determine the defender's escape threshold based on the pursuer's range of vision. Eg an escape car flees at 2pm downtown Topeka. The chasee needs 4 successes vs ground pursuit but 12 vs aircraft. If the chasee enters the heavily wooded city park the escape threshold is 8 vs ground pursuit and 4 vs aircraft due to the tree canopy.

[InfinityzeN]

Here's my quick chase combat system.
*Snip*

I like it. Maybe you should check out my rules thread and see if there are parts of my rules that can be combined with parts of yours and come up with a good system.

[SpasticTeapot]

I think the game was designed for urban driving, where a 650HP Ford Galaxie is at a major disadvantage to a 175HP Miata.

Another question is how difficult terrain affects vehicles. A "rally-style" car like a Lancer Evo or Subaru WRX isn't particularly fast or maneuverable (at least compared to other fast cars they're not) but on loose surfaces they can outrun nearly anything. I'd presume that, in the future, most LoneStar vehicles would be something along these lines.

#8 is there a reason you would not want to use CVTs for production cars?

Inefficiency, unreliability, and small gearing range are the current problems. However, if you can improve efficiency and durability and improve the range to give everything from rock-crawler torque to gearing so low they're only usable downhill, then they make quite a lot of car problems go away.

CVTs have serious maximum load and force limits. They would be more then fine for electrics, city cars, and smaller cars. However, for any how power or performance vehicle they are not the choice since building them strong enough to handle the power is difficult. In addition, the way the sound and feel is not conductive to how a performance vehicle should sound and feel.

You're assuming current CVTs. Compare the original 50s' slushboxes to the modern automatic transmission you can find in 420HP Aston-Martins - there's really no comparison. If we can send sub-orbital transports whizzing around the earth, we can build stonking enormous CVTs.

Just wondering where the Bugatti Veyron doing 0-100mph in 5.5 seconds came from? I stated that the EW3k can do it in ~5 seconds flat, with only one car in the world faster (SSC Ultimate Aero TT).

VW is building a new one with 1,333 PS (about 1320 HP) that should nuke the competitors.

[InfinityzeN]

My original comment on CVTs is that they will be used in all cars but performance cars, which will use sequential manual or semi-automatic manuals. Part of it is surge (sudden load) handling, but another part is you buy a performance car to go fast. No matter how well a CVT works, they just don't seem fast. There is no flare, no engine running through the rpms (they sit at a steady rpm mostly), no change in engine pitch and tone (see last ()).

No matter how fast a performance vehicle is, if it doesn't "Feel" fast to the driver it hurts sales. No matter how slow a performance vehicle is, if it seems very "Fast" to the driver it gets sales.