Question: Infected Carrier Quality Options

[Muspellsheimr]

There was a recent thread discussing this, but was somewhat off-topic.

The Carrier negative Infected quality; Does this quality apply to each strain (HMHVV I, II, III), or to each Infected type (Banshee, Vampire, Loup-Garu, etc.).

The general consensus seems to be that it applies to each of the three strains, & I would be inclined to agree with that. However, reviewing the Infected rules, it strongly implies that a Vampire is unable to create a Banshee, & vice-versa, without the appropriate Carrier quality. It further implies that HMHVV I (Vampire) is different from HMHVV I (Goblin).


If anyone can provide a quote or reference to clarify this, it would be greatly apreciated. I would also like developer input on the intent.

[Starmage21]

There was a recent thread discussing this, but was somewhat off-topic.

The Carrier negative Infected quality; Does this quality apply to each strain (HMHVV I, II, III), or to each Infected type (Banshee, Vampire, Loup-Garu, etc.).

The general consensus seems to be that it applies to each of the three strains, & I would be inclined to agree with that. However, reviewing the Infected rules, it strongly implies that a Vampire is unable to create a Banshee, & vice-versa, without the appropriate Carrier quality. It further implies that HMHVV I (Vampire) is different from HMHVV I (Goblin).


If anyone can provide a quote or reference to clarify this, it would be greatly apreciated. I would also like developer input on the intent.

This is actually WHY I initially started with the various carrier qualities representing the other types of HMHVV I infected. It IS ambiguous. IIRC in SR3 Nosferatu could only create other Nosferatu, but elves could also become them.

[Rasumichin]

However, reviewing the Infected rules, it strongly implies that a Vampire is unable to create a Banshee, & vice-versa, without the appropriate Carrier quality. It further implies that HMHVV I (Vampire) is different from HMHVV I (Goblin).

Where does it imply that?

HMHVV I (Ghilani Vrykolakiviridae)
[...]
HMHVV I is responsible for the creation of banshees, dzoonoo-
qua, goblins, nosferatu, vampires, and wendigo and can only
be spread by the Infection power. [...]
When the character awakens, he has lost all Resonance and technomancer abilities, acquired the
appropriate Infected (Banshee, Dzoo-noo-qua, Goblin, Nosferatu,
Vampire, or Wendigo) Quality, and has an Essence of 1 and Magic
of 1.

This should make it clear that the type of expression depends entirely on the metatype of the victim.
All types require infection by the same virus, the only exception is that nosferatu are created by a variant of HMHVV I :

Carrier
Bonus: 5 BP
[...] A character cannot carry the strains for both vampires
and nosferatu.

On the same page, it reads :

Note that a character can only be infected by an HMHVV
strain that targets their particular metatype—attempts to infect
characters of a different metavariant automatically fail, though the
victim may become an unwitting carrier (at left).

The strain that creates vampires, dzoo noo quaa, wendigos, banshees and goblins is in all cases HMHVVI, just as the strain that creates loup garou, fomôraig and bandersnatchii is in all cases HMHVV II.
The only exception to this are nosferatu.

I'm only referring to the text in the rules section, as the flavour text is an ingame source and therefore not as reliable, but after i have just read up on that passage again, i see where you guys are coming from, as this text (under "What are the Infected?") always refers to "a species of HMHVV I".
It's unclear indeed and probably my assumptions are heavily influenced by statements from SR2 material, such as PAoE.

A clarification from the devs might be needed indeed.

[Wanderer]

Yep, somebody page Dr. Ancient.

[Ancient History]

Okay, let's try this again...

Each species of the virus targets a specific metatype (or in one case, sasquatches), with the (sole) exception of the species that creates ghouls. The old HMHVV "strains" have been renamed as subgenera. The viruses that create banshees, vampires, dzoo-noo-qua, goblins, wendigo, and nosferatu are all related (in the same subgenera) but each is a seperate virus.

That means that a human ghoul can create a troll ghoul or an ork ghoul, because only one virus affects all metatypes, but a vampire cannot create a dzoo-noo-qua or wendigo...unless they have the Carrier quality with the right strain. For ease of reference, you might think along the lines that every Carrier quality has to be paired with the Infected positive quality that the character is carrying.

As for why you can't carry the virus for vampires /and/ nosferatu? Because if you infect a human you would then have a problem about which virus applies.

[Vermithrax]

I was always using infection by primary strain. Just seems wierd to me that MHMVV1 from a Human cannot infect an Ork.
Virii IRL jump species all the time.

[Ancient History]

Yeah, but they tend to mutate when they do. Anyway, its partially a game balance mechanism: cuts down on the one-person-buy-Infected-and-infect-the-rest-of-the-group syndrome.

[Vermithrax]

:sigh: I guess I'll have to rewrite a bit of story plot and retcon some prior info.
Either that or put it in the House Rules. My players like to know what non-core rules im using.

[Stahlseele]

can a non-infected become carrier?
i now imagine a totally inconspious totally in everything mediocre standard joe doe being carrier of all strains infecting people left and right.
himself being immune to infection and not even knowing that he's infective to any and all other races . .
constantly cursing his bad luck of such things allways happening where he decides to go . .

[Vermithrax]

the Mary Mallon of Shadowrun. Neat.

[Starmage21]

Yeah, but they tend to mutate when they do. Anyway, its partially a game balance mechanism: cuts down on the one-person-buy-Infected-and-infect-the-rest-of-the-group syndrome.

How? You get points for taking the carrier negative qualities.

[Starmage21]

can a non-infected become carrier?
i now imagine a totally inconspious totally in everything mediocre standard joe doe being carrier of all strains infecting people left and right.
himself being immune to infection and not even knowing that he's infective to any and all other races . .
constantly cursing his bad luck of such things allways happening where he decides to go . .

depends on the strain. HMHVV I requires essence drain to begin transformation doesnt it?

[Rasumichin]

@ AH :
Surprise, surprise.
I would not have thought that, judging from the text.

How? You get points for taking the carrier negative qualities.

By RAW, each Carrier quality provides a cumulative -2 modifier on social tests- so a true typhoid mary type vampire who caries 7 different species of HMHVV (5 versions of strain I plus strain II and III) for 35BP gained would suffer a -14 penalty when not intimidating (in which case the possibility to infect everyone would be an advantage, of course).

However, people would have to know that he is the viral mothership No 1- not likely without a blood test or a particularly bad reputation.

Which reminds me that we could realy use a list of which qualities in RC add to bad rep out of chargen.

depends on the strain. HMHVV I requires essence drain to begin transformation doesnt it?

Yes, so there would be no vampires accidentally popping up.
Unwitting strain II and III carriers, on the other hand, are always a potential nightmare scenario.
Ever wondered how Lagos got 1 million ghoul inhabitants?

[Muspellsheimr]

Thanks for the clarification.

[toturi]

Okay, let's try this again...

Each species of the virus targets a specific metatype (or in one case, sasquatches), with the (sole) exception of the species that creates ghouls. The old HMHVV "strains" have been renamed as subgenera. The viruses that create banshees, vampires, dzoo-noo-qua, goblins, wendigo, and nosferatu are all related (in the same subgenera) but each is a seperate virus.

That means that a human ghoul can create a troll ghoul or an ork ghoul, because only one virus affects all metatypes, but a vampire cannot create a dzoo-noo-qua or wendigo...unless they have the Carrier quality with the right strain. For ease of reference, you might think along the lines that every Carrier quality has to be paired with the Infected positive quality that the character is carrying.

As for why you can't carry the virus for vampires /and/ nosferatu? Because if you infect a human you would then have a problem about which virus applies.

So in terms of game mechanics, how it that played out?

1) Nick the Vampire is a Carrier of HMHVV I?

2) Nick the Vampire is a Carrier of HMHVV I (Vampire)?

3) Something else?

[Ancient History]

Nick the Vampire is a Carrier (Vampire).

[Starmage21]

So in terms of game mechanics, how it that played out?

1) Nick the Vampire is a Carrier of HMHVV I?

2) Nick the Vampire is a Carrier of HMHVV I (Vampire)?

3) Something else?

The way I read it now with Ancient History's help is 3.) Something Else.

Nick the vampire is a carrier of HMHVV I: Vampire strain. He can make other vampires only. If he essence drains an elf to death, Infection fails because elves cannot become vampires.

If Nick The Vampire also has a carrier quality, and carries the banshee strain of HMHVV I as well, when he essence drains the elf in the previous example, a banshee may(will?) result.

[Ancient History]

Starry's got it.

[toturi]

So in effect, an Infected can have a kickback of 35 BPs worth of Carrier Negative Qualities, instead of (at most) 15 BPs.

Another question with respect to Carrier: Apart from the negative Social modifiers, is there any difference between a Vampire with Carrier and a Vampire without Carrier with respect to the Infection power?

Can a Vampire without the Carrier negative quality infect an elf into becoming a banshee?

[Wanderer]

Yeah, but they tend to mutate when they do.

Sorry but biologically this makes no sense. If they mutate so much, no way they can stay uniform enough as to reproduce such consistent transformation patterns in each metatype. Besides, how did strains for elves & co. manage to survive the downcycle ? No really, the one-strain HMHVV-I model makes so much more sense, as it wasin previous editions.

Anyway, its partially a game balance mechanism: cuts down on the one-person-buy-Infected-and-infect-the-rest-of-the-group syndrome.

Argghh. The bane of RPG: utterly unplausible setting elements or unreasonably restrictive rules forced down the player's throat to curb supposed game balance problems. What happened to the truckload of points one has to pay to become an Infected character in play ? Those 100 pts or so are what is supposed to curb such problems. Besides, this campy biology does not really solve much: most of the characters in a group shall be human, and this rule does nothing to stop one Infected character to make all the other human characters in the group vampires or nosferatu. Or for that matter, purposefully making any Infected character with Carrier flaws for most of the other metatypes' strains. As always, such lamebrained so-called "game balance" rules do slow resourceful exploiters for say five minutes, while making life unreasonably diffcult or straining the suspension of believability of all the other players.

[Wanderer]

So in effect, an Infected can have a kickback of 35 BPs worth of Carrier Negative Qualities, instead of (at most) 15 BPs.

Yep, exactly my point above. Now I'm rewarded with extra BPs for being able to Infect most of the other metatypes characters in the group. Big game balance enforcement measure, yeah.

[Muspellsheimr]

I agree that it does not make sense from supposedly being an attempt to balance it.

However, it does make sense from how the fluff is laid out, & I kind of like it (although it is a bit munchkiny).

[Ancient History]

The balance bit isn't the Carrier quality itself, it's that you cannot infect your entire group (probably) without taking the Carrier quality. Carrier is a negative quality because of the social modifiers and because it can complicate feeding. ("Jim, your lunch just got up and started biting people." "But I had elf for lunch...damn!")

Sorry but biologically this makes no sense.

Believe it or not, we do have a couple of people with degrees that know about this stuff - and while sometimes they can't agree, we generally get something workable out of it. One virus that causes umpteen different expressions isn't as plausible as a family of related viruses, each of which has a specific target and effect. This is why we don't have elven wendigo or vampire dogs. And really, do we need vampire dogs in Shadowrun? Probably not.

[Wanderer]

The balance bit isn't the Carrier quality itself, it's that you cannot infect your entire group (probably) without taking the Carrier quality. Carrier is a negative quality because of the social modifiers and because it can complicate feeding. ("Jim, your lunch just got up and started biting people." "But I had elf for lunch...damn!")

Only if the average Carrier vampire/wendigo/banshee were oblivious enough to drain a victim completely destroying a body. I bet that few Infected that are long-term survivors are that clumsly and no Infected PC were. I agree that for vamp or nosfie carrying the ghoul virus is big burden, but as long as you are nay careful, being a Carrier for another HMHVV-I strain is a marketable perk more often than not. Selling "immortality in bite" or indeed infecting pretty much all the group (more or less: being an Infected definitely rocks for humans, elves, and orks, a bit less so for dwarves and trolls).

Believe it or not, we do have a couple of people with degrees that know about this stuff - and while sometimes they can't agree, we generally get something workable out of it. One virus that causes umpteen different expressions isn't as plausible as a family of related viruses, each of which has a specific target and effect. This is why we don't have elven wendigo or vampire dogs. And really, do we need vampire dogs in Shadowrun? Probably not.

But metahumans are nowhere that genetically different, they are subspecies of Homo Sapiens. The genetic changes that HMHVV-I causes among different subspecies are for the large part similar or akin to a pattern, and maybe easily explianed by the interaction between the virus and the various metagenes. Actually it makes more sense this way than a hodge podge of virus variants that each target just a metatype, or a human ethnicity, gender (apart of sexual organs of course), dog race, etc.

[Wanderer]

Sorry double post