Explaining Attribute Differences, The extremes Options

[ElFenrir]

I'm wondering how some of you-as players or GMs, actually describe the effect of Attributes that have large differences between them. Let me explain:

While technically speaking, none of the attributes are connected-you could easily have someone with the statblock of 5/5/1/1/1/1/5/5, for example-some attributes ARE kinda-sorta together. For example...Agility is your, well, physical agility. You'd THINK someone with a very high Agility would be at least around Joe Average(2) in their other physical stats, simply due to the work they have to put in. How would you explain someone with a 1 Body, and 5 Agility? Somehow really fast but a strong wind would blow them over?

I always kind of figured someone with a 5 Strength and 1 Body might, for example, be a steroid-head; very strong but their health was driven to very low levels through the effects of the drugs. Of course, Body has a lot to do with Lifting tests as well; the 5 Strength, 1 Body guy rolls the same amount of dice for a lifting test as the 5 Body, 1 Strength guy. The difference is the 5 Strength guy has a much bigger base; but both of them can essentially add the same amount of hits. In a deadlift, 5 Strength guy can lift 75 Kilos without a test, but 1 strength guy only 15. However, both of them can add up to 90 Kilos.(5+1=6, times 15 is 90.) I guess Strong Guy does this with his raw strength, while Weak but Super Healthy guy does it with leverage or something?

Reaction is a strange stat-it's deemed Physical, but it's not used on Cyberlimbs...natural reaction is, which makes me think this stat is half mental...or even more Mental in a way. But sometimes Reaction and Agility are tied in together-how would you describe someone with a 5 Agility, 1 reaction? Vice-versa I could see someone who could do amazingly in those Reaction tests on computers, or play those bullet-hell shooters with little trouble, but be in poor physical shape otherwise. I guess reversed, the 5 Agility person has a lot of physical conditioning for speed, but can't catch a ball if you throw it to them from a meter away.

Right now, I have a character with a 5 Intuition, but a 1 Logic. I always saw him as very street-smart, street-saavy, with a strong instinct when it comes to fighting and generally knowing what's what in the underground; but big words trouble him, sometimes he just ''doesn't get'' certain things, and the like. How would you explain the reverse-brilliant mind but a 1 Intuition? The kind of person who can calculate Pi out to 200 numbers, but might be more oblivious than a goldfish? It almost seems like some real-life scientists almost fall into this.

Charisma and Willpower somehow stand on their own, to me-even if you use them for Composure tests. Charisma is magnetism, yes-but I'm wondering how it plays into composure. How is composure measured on how socially saavy/likable someone is, or is it just a case of ''we needed a second stat to put in it?''

Again, I guess none of the stats really connect technically-sure, someone with a very high Body might well have good Agility/Strength as well, but I've seen plenty of tough-as-nails people who, while they aren't weak or slow, aren't too much more than average.

Hopefully this post makes SOME kind of sense, but I'm just curious on how some folks here describe vast differences in certain stats that are sometimes seen as ''connected.'' Even though they technically aren't.

[InfinityzeN]

It makes some kinda sense. Just thought I would add that Joe Average has 3s, not 2s.

[ElFenrir]

In SR2-3 yes....in SR4, it's been said that a 2 is more of the ''unexceptional Joe Average'' stat. a 3 nowadays is ''Improved Average.'' Like, Joe the Computer Guy might have a 3 Logic and 2's everywhere else, Bob the Dockworker has a 3 Strength, but 2's most other places. Both are average; it's just one is more unexceptional, and one is more ''taken care of'' I guess you can say.

[Rasumichin]

@ infinityzeN : this is a repeated point of -mostly fruitles- discussion when linking SR4 stats to real-world analogies. I really hope that we can keep that out of this thread and stick to less disputed categories such as high and low, without giving exact numbers.
It should be sufficient for our purposes.


@ ElFenrir :
In general, most of your examples seem spot-on.
The only point i'd like to add has to do with this :

Charisma and Willpower somehow stand on their own, to me-even if you use them for Composure tests. Charisma is magnetism, yes-but I'm wondering how it plays into composure. How is composure measured on how socially saavy/likable someone is, or is it just a case of ''we needed a second stat to put in it?''

Charisma doesn't only entail personal magnetism.
It also measures conviction, determination and self esteem, as any charismatic person needs high amounts of these.
Remember the saying that others can't like you if you don't like yourself.
Not exactly true, but you at least have to make people believe that a) you believe in yourself or b) even though you may not believe in yourself, you are someone they should believe in.
Keep in mind that you also use Charisma to force your will on others in Intimidation or Leadership tests.
This requires a lot of clout and selfassurednes, because people will not follow you if you seem hesitant.
Charisma and Willpower are rightfully the classic offense-defense pair of social skill tests (the other pairing being CHA-INT when not open influence and confrontation, but deception is desired).

It may be hard to seperate this partial aspect of Charisma from Willpower.
The key here is that Willpower is more of a passive stat, always used for resistance instead of actively influencing someone.

A person with high CHA, but low WIL could be someone who has a demanding and magnetic presence on the outside, but deep within feels inferior and is terribly afraid of being disliked by others.
They would seem forceful, energetic, and confident on first glance, but would nevertheles be hurt extremely easy by snide remarks and may exhibit addictive personalities, may cling strongly to others in relationships and overall show an exaggerated desire to be liked by everyone because deep down inside, their biggest fear is being rejected.
Sounds like a typical case of histrionic personality disorder to me.

On the other hand, someone with high WIL and low CHA would be a supernaturally stubborn, grumpy person, not swayed by any argument, but also unable to bring their own point across in a conversation, missing any subtlety and social grace and causing only resentment in a discussion.
Someone who is unable to compromise or see other people's point of view, an individual who only values his own opinion and alienates others by always wanting to be right because his low feeling of self worth compells him that giving in equals letting down his last line of defense against a world that hates him anyway.
In other words, your average internet troll.^^

[pbangarth]

Some of your examples seem bang-on, ElFenrir.

EDIT: Rasumichin, good points, too.

I knew a kid once, a friend of my daughter, who never got sick, and could walk outside in a Canadian winter in shorts and t-shirt, and not only not be cold, but actually radiate heat enough to warm up her friends' hands. But she was a string-bean, and couldn't lift worth a damn. Sounds like high BOD, low STR to me. My brother, when we were both kids, was a natural athlete. He played every sport. He broke bones and twisted ligaments constantly. And when I came along (Typhoid Peter), he caught every childhood disease known, and then some. Low BOD, high other physical stats?

Imagine someone who could bend into a pretzel shape, squeeze through a ventilator shaft, put tiny electronic components unerringly into place, but couldn't do anything quickly, even dodge that runaway truck if.. well... if his life depended on it. High AGI, low REA.

Imagine the cat-like girl who twitches and leaps at the least sound, but who can't control those movements enough to keep from getting fired from the job in the jewelry store. High REA, low AGI.

Right brain -- left brain :: INT -- LOG :: artist -- line editor.

I've talked my way into innumerable grants and scholarships, and most who work with me like me just fine. I've been married... three times. I've been working on my dissertation... for years. High CHA, low WIL?

Peter

[HentaiZonga]

Huh. I wonder if it'd make sense to have "Attribute groups" like you have "Skill groups", that are slightly easier to raise together (say, 5 x New Level rather than 3):

Brawn - Strength / Body
Quickness - Agility / Reaction
Presence - Willpower / Charisma
Intelligence - Logic / Intuition

Just have them follow all the rules for Skill Groups and you should be gold.

[ElFenrir]

You know, I somehow didn't see it that way; but now it makes MUCH more sense. I knew Charisma was a lot more than physical beauty(indeed, having VERY little to do with it), but thinking of it as a sort of ''Social Willpower''-yeah. I like those descriptions of it, and at least now the two sort of fit together a bit better. I always figured Willpower played into things like resisting Intimidation; if you're gutsy, you won't be pushed around as easily. It's kind of interesting to imagine the High Cha-low Will person; someone able to intimidate the pants off someone...but unable to possibly resist it that well, at the same time. Of course, then there is ''just how likable someone has to be with a high Charisma.'' I'm sure there's folks around that technically, in SR terms, have high-ass Charisma with their manipulation abilities, but not be the most likable folks around. Though this might be explained by average Charisma and a very high Social skill.

That leaves Reaction as the ''stat without much of a home.'' Half Physical/Mental(even though it's under Physical stats)...but the one physical stat where you can be rather...physically feeble and still have a very high stat, and it would still make sense.

I also liked to think how the High Stat/Low Skill-High Skill/Low Stat folks behave. Like, the difference between someone with Charisma 1 and Etiquette 6, and Etiquette 1/Charisma 6. Insert any other in; the classic example of the 7 Agility, 2 Blades guy fighting the 2 Agility, 7 Blades old master. Technically it's the same die pools, but those instances just LOOK different(the old man obviously being more skilled, the fast guy relying more on his super-fast strikes, though he looks a lot clumsier.)

[Muspellsheimr]

Charisma doesn't only entail personal magnetism.
It also measures conviction, determination and self esteem, as any charismatic person needs high amounts of these.
Remember the saying that others can't like you if you don't like yourself.

Self esteem & self awareness are Charisma. Conviction & determination are aspects of both Charisma & Willpower. Otherwise your examples pretty much fit.

[Rasumichin]

It's kind of interesting to imagine the High Cha-low Will person; someone able to intimidate the pants off someone...but unable to possibly resist it that well, at the same time.

A social glass cannon, so to speak.
Trust me, these people can be annoying in real life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Well, sometimes, at least, you can't be mad at them for too long.
I happen to know a guy who's exactly like this, always making a scene, complete drama queen, always getting upset if things don't go his way, but quite charming and convincing in bringing his point across.
But as soon as he encounters serious opposition to his ideas and his demands, he just folds.
Gives in at the slightest notice, goes all "oh yeah, you're right, i see your point now, if you had only put it like this earlier, i wouldn't have bothered, now let's go party."

Of course, then there is ''just how likable someone has to be with a high Charisma.''

Not necessarily much.
Likeability is a good example, but charismatic people can as well be magnificent bastards.
One can be an abusive egomaniac, completely self-centered, without any consideration for others, but still bring it across in a way that you just have to admire how incredibly awsome that person is.
Sometimes, with such people, you can find yourself laughing at how they just made fun of you, just because of their personal magnetism, their presence.
Charismatic people are sometimes just there and everybody just has to accept them as potential alphas.

Or think about practically anybody succesfully ruling by fear.

Also, some people are extremely good at highlighting their strenghts.
At making people notice that they are cunning, smart, indomitable and whatnot (good example of high mental stats throughout the board).
Even if they are not liked, they are respected and their word carries weight.



As far as the whole Reaction/Agility dilemma is concerned (i'd also count STR in, as it determines succes for a lot of of tasks that require both strenght and physical dexterity), it's a mess indeed.
Mostly because of balance reasons that in this case may have been more important than concerns for plausibility.

First of all, one has to view Agility mainly as manual dexterity.
Fine motorics and hand-eye coordination are key elements here.
Rougher areas of motoric coordination also figure in, but only as far as combat skills are concerned.
In the field of athletics, it's all about Strenght by the RAW, technique being summed up under the same handle.

At the same time, Reaction does indeed contain a lot of mental tasks.
Keeping track of various occurences, rapidly asessing a situation and drawing the right conclusions from them.
This is partially also the field of Intuition (which is why it's the other part of Initiative), but that's about noticing that things are there and recognizing them.
Reaction is about instinctively reacting to them and coordinating several complex processes at the same time.

We have to keep in mind that skillwise, Reaction is linked almost exclusively to piloting various vehicles, where you do just that.
And that is a mostly mental task.

Of course, the line gets blurry from time to time.
That's because of the abovementioned balance reasons, i think.
But also because in this field, one could excessively microgranulate a rules system, eg by entirely seperating coarse and fine motorics or by using several stats at the same time for a single test (like STR/AGI/WIL for climbing, as TDE does- trust me, it's horrible when an RPG does this out of love for realism).

[pbangarth]

We have to keep in mind that skillwise, Reaction is linked almost exclusively to piloting various vehicles, where you do just that.
And that is a mostly mental task.

I agree that one has to process the situation mentally in order to react to it. At the same time I think you downplay the physical aspect of REA. Up until an age in the mid-40s anyway, humans demonstrate little drop in their mental faculties. I recall seeing world-class gymnasts in that age group, as well as body-builders and weight lifters. I don't recall seeing anybody at the Olympic table tennis competition who was anywhere near that age. I also couldn't see the damn ball half the time it was moving and changing direction so fast.

Peter

[Malachi]

In my mind Reaction is more "instinct" where Agility is the more "purposeful" side of hand-eye coordination.

[pbangarth]

Hmmmm, Malachi ....

REA is to AGI as INT is to LOG. And others above, STR is to CHA as BOD is to WIL.

Interesting that that is how it is in the astral plane. Any chance the developers went through this thought process a long time ago?

Peter

[Rasumichin]

I agree that one has to process the situation mentally in order to react to it. At the same time I think you downplay the physical aspect of REA. Up until an age in the mid-40s anyway, humans demonstrate little drop in their mental faculties. I recall seeing world-class gymnasts in that age group, as well as body-builders and weight lifters. I don't recall seeing anybody at the Olympic table tennis competition who was anywhere near that age. I also couldn't see the damn ball half the time it was moving and changing direction so fast.

Peter

Now that you bring it up, it's been much over five years since i last was able to catch a fly with my bare hand, without using a flyswatter.
While i could do so regularly as a teenager.
Unless flys have evolved to be faster, i guess i'm convinced.

[hyzmarca]

I wouldn't say that someone with Body 1 but high strength is taking anabolic steroids. Anabolic steroids make it easier to increase Body, as well (by making it easier to increase bone density, which would be a natural consequence of strength-building exercise). Furthermore, the level of excess use required to suffer severe negative health is likely to be greater than that required to reach SR peak human capability (since a person can reach STR 6 without using anabolic steroids, it must be possible to do so with safe and reasonable androgen levels).


The problem with thinking this way is that SR stats are too abstract. Realistically, you could divide Body up into a dozen or more stats reflecting the health and status of various organs and systems, some of which are interrelated with Strength and some of which are not. But that would be an awful lot of bookkeeping.

[Rasumichin]

I wouldn't say that someone with Body 1 but high strength is taking anabolic steroids. Anabolic steroids make it easier to increase Body, as well (by making it easier to increase bone density, which would be a natural consequence of strength-building exercise). Furthermore, the level of excess use required to suffer severe negative health is likely to be greater than that required to reach SR peak human capability (since a person can reach STR 6 without using anabolic steroids, it must be possible to do so with safe and reasonable androgen levels).


The problem with thinking this way is that SR stats are too abstract. Realistically, you could divide Body up into a dozen or more stats reflecting the health and status of various organs and systems, some of which are interrelated with Strength and some of which are not. But that would be an awful lot of bookkeeping.

Certainly- but as far as i get it, the idea behind this thread is not to give a be all, end all explanation to what attribute levels exactly mean, but how vast differences between specific attributes could possibly be explained.
Which is a good idea, as the system generally tends to encourage such discrepancies and coming up with a list of possible explanations does a lot to decrease tension between mechanic efficiency and plausible character design.

[Sir_Psycho]

I would say a high strength low body would be a leaner character, but also strength might not have to be a direct indication of muscle mass, but ability to use those muscles. Some people are just more industrious with the muscles they have. For example, one large character might be able to easily lift a box due to sheer muscle mass, but another might have less bulk but be better at manipulating his weight and posture to get the same results. That's all attributes are, really, potential for outcomes. The reasoning is a roleplay concern.

[TheOOB]

I've always described charisma as your sense of self. A character with a low charisma feels just like one of many, they have trouble with their identity and self image, and find it difficult to creation the presence they want and impose the right image on people. On the flip side someone with a high charisma has a very strong self awareness, they are more likely to stand out when they wish and have little trouble making their presence felt in the exact way they want. A person with a low charisma isn't neccesarly shy or rude, they just have difficulty getting people to think of them they way they want(and tend to change themselves to be what others think of them, hence why trolls and orks tend to be violent). People with high charisma tend aren't so much good looking as they are striking, people find it difficult to ignore them, being it because of good looks, a rugged scarred appearance, or just a great personal presence. If they want you to fear them, you will be afraid, and if they want you to like them, they will be your best friend. Charisma helps composer because you don't agonize over what you want and what you should do, you know exact ally what you want and what you should do.