Skillwires Abuse, Random thought Options

[The Jake]

If data storage is considered no longer an issue by 2070, whats to stop someone downloading every conceivable skillsoft possible onto an internal commlink (linked via DNI) or other random data repository? You could effectively have someone with almost infinite skills without ever paying karma for it? Even with the restrictions on the use of Edge, that's not a huge restriction....

- J.

[HentaiZonga]

If data storage is considered no longer an issue by 2070, whats to stop someone downloading every conceivable skillsoft possible onto an internal commlink (linked via DNI) or other random data repository? You could effectively have someone with almost infinite skills without ever paying karma for it? Even with the restrictions on the use of Edge, that's not a huge restriction....

- J.

It takes a Complex Action to "spool up" or "spool down" a given Skillsoft. So as long as you intend to only be doing two things the whole combat, sure. Go for it. Otherwise, you'll be missing out a lot.

[pbangarth]

You got it. The only limits are cost and availability. These of course are in the GMs purvue.

Peter

[The Jake]

It takes a Complex Action to "spool up" or "spool down" a given Skillsoft. So as long as you intend to only be doing two things the whole combat, sure. Go for it. Otherwise, you'll be missing out a lot.

Ok so it takes time to spool up a given skillsoft but there's no limit on memory anymore. So one could infer data transfer rates are unlimited.

Whats to stop someone processing an unlimited number of skillsofts simultaneously? Is there a hard cap on the maximum number permitted? If so, how is that even remotely logical in a world where data storage and transfer rates are deemed unlimited?

- J.

[HentaiZonga]

Ok so it takes time to spool up a given skillsoft but there's no limit on memory anymore. So one could infer data transfer rates are unlimited.

Whats to stop someone processing an unlimited number of skillsofts simultaneously? Is there a hard cap on the maximum number permitted? If so, how is that even remotely logical in a world where data storage and transfer rates are deemed unlimited?

- J.

You can only have a number of 'rating points' of Skillsofts active equal to your Skillwires rating x 2. So a Skillwire 5 could have 10 rating points' worth of Skillsofts - say, two Rating 4's and one Rating 2, or three Rating 3's and one Rating 1.

[The Jake]

You can only have a number of 'rating points' of Skillsofts active equal to your Skillwires rating x 2. So a Skillwire 5 could have 10 rating points' worth of Skillsofts - say, two Rating 4's and one Rating 2, or three Rating 3's and one Rating 1.

Ok, that's the cap - albeit not much of one.

So there's nothing stopping me having every conceivable skillsoft stored within my skillwires and just switching them in and out as required, using skillwires plus to use Edge?

- J.

[BishopMcQ]

Skillwires can handle a number of skillsofts with a total rating equal to (Skillwire Rating x 2). So a Rating 4 Skillwire system can have up to 8 points of active Skillsofts.

While the system may be able to hold more than that in memory, that is the maximum that it can hold in active memory. This would be similar to the limitations on Commlinks and the number of active programs.

[BishopMcQ]

Also, tests made with basic skillsofts can not use Edge. (SR4, 320)

[HentaiZonga]

Also, tests made with basic skillsofts can not use Edge. (SR4, 320)

And an Expert System just lets you use Edge to re-roll failures.

[BishopMcQ]

Yep, that's why I specified "basic" skillsofts.

[pbangarth]

Also, tests made with basic skillsofts can not use Edge. (SR4, 320)

Unless the character has the Skillwire Expert System from Augmentation.

Peter

Edit: Man, a guy's gotta be quick around here!

[Werewindlefr]

It takes a Complex Action to "spool up" or "spool down" a given Skillsoft. So as long as you intend to only be doing two things the whole combat, sure. Go for it. Otherwise, you'll be missing out a lot.

What about only taking combat skills with BP/karma and loading all the other skills in a commlink?
What's the point of getting a rating 1 or 2 skill when you can get skillwires? Edge? In the end, aside from very special, situational circumstances, skillwires are way better.

My houserule against this: Skillwires 3 and above are hi-tech, high-availability-rating stuff (Corps don't need workers with more than 2 in the relevant skills anyway), and 2s count toward glitches when using skillwires. That way, getting the real skills at rating 1 or 2 still matter.

[The Jake]

Skillwires can handle a number of skillsofts with a total rating equal to (Skillwire Rating x 2). So a Rating 4 Skillwire system can have up to 8 points of active Skillsofts.

While the system may be able to hold more than that in memory, that is the maximum that it can hold in active memory. This would be similar to the limitations on Commlinks and the number of active programs.

Ok, but skillwire monkeys are entirely viable?

Oh well, I guess there are more sensible boundaries in place than past editions.

- J.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have said it multiple times before, & will say it again. Skillwires are fucking retarded, overpowering, & hurt gameplay.

With the exception of Awakened or Emergent skills, a single person with skillwires can do everything the entire team can do. They will not be as good, but close enough that it doesn't make much difference.

[The Jake]

I have said it multiple times before, & will say it again. Skillwires are fucking retarded, overpowering, & hurt gameplay.

With the exception of Awakened or Emergent skills, a single person with skillwires can do everything the entire team can do. They will not be as good, but close enough that it doesn't make much difference.

That was my thought too. Glad I'm not alone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

[WeaverMount]

It get's worse with the nanites that give you +3 to logic and intuition linked skills. Having a 4+3 on basically any down time skill is pretty over the top especially for a mage with a high logic score. If your GM lets you use all the extra brokeness unwired allows for skill softs ... yeah

[pbangarth]

Let's step back and have a look. At chargen, a PC can have skillwires up to level 3. So out of the box, the PC can have a set of skills, far fewer than all because of the BP limit, that are all at best level 3.

To get that horrendously scary skillwire (5), sometime later the PC has to deal with an availability of 20. And the paltry availability 8 skillsofts add up to about 50 of them (Assuming you took a few real skills). 50 rating 1 skillsofts cost 150,000 nuyen. Rating 5s ring in at 750,000 nuyen.

There won't be too many of those PCs floating around Seattle.

Peter

[Malachi]

I have created a few additional House Rules regarding skill softs, the limit of Skillwire Rating x 2 remains.

Skillsofts are Commlink programs and subject to all of the same rules as any of the Common or Hacking programs. You must have a System rating equal to or exceeding the rating of the Skillsoft you are running. Skillsofts that are running count as a running program on your Commlink and are subject to Response degradation rules. Shutting down a single skillsoft takes a Free action. Activating a single Skillsoft takes a Complex Action. The information from the Skillsoft is transmitted wirelessly to the Skillwire receiver unless the user has a Skinlink or specifically tells me they are running a fiberoptic cable to their datajack from their Commlink. As programs, Skillsofts are subject to all the vulnerabilities of other Commlink programs: they can be Crashed, Spoofed, or Corrupted ("For some reason, I can't fire a pistol anymore!")

[toturi]

I have said it multiple times before, & will say it again. Skillwires are fucking retarded, overpowering, & hurt gameplay.

With the exception of Awakened or Emergent skills, a single person with skillwires can do everything the entire team can do. They will not be as good, but close enough that it doesn't make much difference.

I think that was the point. The classic street sam's role in a team has always been overshadowed by the massive damage outputs a rigger or a mage are capable of. If you consider that technomancers make some of the best riggers and having skillwires is not conducive to being a mage, then pretty much what's left is for the mundane to play the skill-monkey.

[ElFenrir]

It's pretty funny-we usually played in a bit more ramped-up games(750 Karma, or 400 BP with less limitations.) We tend to knock out other limitations at the start, like Availability limits. Gods know I've played a hell of a heavy-hitting(13+ damage) dude with tons of dice in that and other skills. But something just...keeps me away from Skillwires. As powerful as they are, and under our no-Availability and much more lax rules I could make an even worse monster...but...gah. I dunno what it is, but they aren't my cup of tea.

I mean, they're good. If not too good, great, awesome, broken, whatever you want to call them. And I can see the point of them. But...hmm. I dunno what it is. I can't put my finger on it. I know that I could get those rating 6 skillwires and a boatload of those rating 2-3 skillsofts that I spent Karma on, but something feels wrong about it. I like knowing my own skills. And again, this comes from someone who's played some pretty insane martial-arts twinks(and the like) in their time.

[TeOdio]

If I remember correctly, you can only buy an active soft at no more than a rating 4. Granted, being able to have a rating 4 in ANY skill is pretty bad ass, but as a previous poster commented, it can be very pricey. As far as character creation goes, a person that dumps a ton of BP's into Gear money for Skill softs (and @ 9K a pop for a rating 3 it ain't cheap) and a person that just dumps a ton of BP's into skills isn't very different in the end. Essentially it's trying to be a Jack of all Trades but going about it in different ways. For personal perspective, I've been running the game in all of it's incarnations since 1991, and to be honest, I've never thought Skill Wires over powered. The 4th Ed. rule set especially seems pretty balanced to me. Can someone "break" them? Sure. I've got players that find a way to "break" stuff in my game all of the time. That's a player issue, and not a system issue as far as I'm concerned. And quite honestly, I don't punish a player for wanting 20 dice for perception if that's what he wants for his or her character (although the other players are free to dig in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) ). People enjoy the game for a variety of reasons, and ridiculous dice pools have always been an appeal for some players. As far as setting goes, I have always LOVED the idea of skill wires. A corp that makes them can easily load em into their workers @ cost, and since the Active Softs are just software, that's a negligible cost to them as well. Having a Spider be able to load up whatever skills an on site sec. team needs is a pretty awesome way to throw the players a curve ball every once in a while as well.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Malachi]

I've got players that find a way to "break" stuff in my game all of the time. That's a player issue, and not a system issue as far as I'm concerned.

QFT

[The Jake]

If I remember correctly, you can only buy an active soft at no more than a rating 4. Granted, being able to have a rating 4 in ANY skill is pretty bad ass, but as a previous poster commented, it can be very pricey. As far as character creation goes, a person that dumps a ton of BP's into Gear money for Skill softs (and @ 9K a pop for a rating 3 it ain't cheap) and a person that just dumps a ton of BP's into skills isn't very different in the end. Essentially it's trying to be a Jack of all Trades but going about it in different ways. For personal perspective, I've been running the game in all of it's incarnations since 1991, and to be honest, I've never thought Skill Wires over powered. The 4th Ed. rule set especially seems pretty balanced to me. Can someone "break" them? Sure. I've got players that find a way to "break" stuff in my game all of the time. That's a player issue, and not a system issue as far as I'm concerned. And quite honestly, I don't punish a player for wanting 20 dice for perception if that's what he wants for his or her character (although the other players are free to dig in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) ). People enjoy the game for a variety of reasons, and ridiculous dice pools have always been an appeal for some players. As far as setting goes, I have always LOVED the idea of skill wires. A corp that makes them can easily load em into their workers @ cost, and since the Active Softs are just software, that's a negligible cost to them as well. Having a Spider be able to load up whatever skills an on site sec. team needs is a pretty awesome way to throw the players a curve ball every once in a while as well.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Rating 4 + n number of dice to the Logic dice still strikes me as pretty broken. I hadn't even thought of nanotech entering into the equation.

FWIW, conceptually I like skillwires. I'm just wondering if people have abused it and if/how GMs have dealt with this. Malachi's suggestions were quite good.

- J.

[Crusher Bob]

From what I remember of CP2020, it dealt with chipped skills by limiting them to skill level 3 (out of a possible 10). So chipping things basically got your foot in the door of the skill, but no further than that. Limiting chipped skills to level 2 might work, since skill level 2 is supposed to be reasonably knowledgeable about the skill in SR4.

[KCKitsune]

Let's step back and have a look. At chargen, a PC can have skillwires up to level 3. So out of the box, the PC can have a set of skills, far fewer than all because of the BP limit, that are all at best level 3.

To get that horrendously scary skillwire (5), sometime later the PC has to deal with an availability of 20. And the paltry availability 8 skillsofts add up to about 50 of them (Assuming you took a few real skills). 50 rating 1 skillsofts cost 150,000 nuyen. Rating 5s ring in at 750,000 nuyen.

There won't be too many of those PCs floating around Seattle.

Peter

Actually with the restricted gear quality you can get MBW level 2 and that gives you Rating 4 Skillwires , a dodge boost, an insane reaction boost, 2 more IP, and is only as Expensive Essence wise as Rating 2 Wired Reflexes. Sure it costs 85K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but hey, it saves you about 1.2 points of Essence (as compared to Wired 2 plus Skillwire 4)

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Quick question for everyone... would you recommend getting a skillwire rating 1 rig for a cybered mage? It would allow him to bypass the "defaulting" skill tests.