Skillwires Abuse, Random thought Options

[Dragnar]

1)
One must find a pirate network, with a minimum of 1 day active search on the Matrix. (Unwired, p. 94)

Which means every average user with no idea of how to operate a matrix search at all just using a decent tool to do the work for him will find one in about a week. An agent would be a lot faster and doesn't tie up the char during that time at all.

2)
One must search for each program separately, with a threshold of 12 or more.

And an intervall so small that even searching for every skill in existence takes less than an hour.

3)
Points 1) and 2) are subject to glitches, and more importantly, the countermeasures of software manufacturers. Surely we don't think there won't be agents and sprites out there looking for just such activity? And doing it for a day straight, or longer? Come on. Welcome to cybercombat 2 minutes into the character's game-life.

That would be nothing more than a houserule to arbitrarily devalue pirated software, however. I'd assume most pirate networks have at least about 5 MILLION users online at any given time (which is a conservative estimate, as that would be a lot less than todays file-sharing networks) so saying some spy agent caught the player specifically isn't any more plausible than saying "oh, the skillwires you bought were glitchy. Roll edge or have them explode.". I don't have players get ambushed by Ares hitsquads every time they buy a predator from their dealer, so why should that be different?

4)
Pirated software ratings degrade, monthly. (Unwired p. 109)

No, they don't. As the paragraph on the page you referenced indicates, only hacking programs and malware degrade that fast. Everything else degrades every two months.

5)
Pirated software you have paid for may turn out to be something else, or infected. (Unwired, p. 109)

Ignoring the fact that there shouldn't be any computer viruses in the SR world at all, considering how long they take to write, while still being less usefull than an unrestricted agent, even including the cost of a good analyze agent to semi-reliably get about 4 hits on the verification pirated software comes out ahead.

6)
Even Pluscode software cannot exceed the rating of the skillwire. (Unwired, p. 94) So the Pluscode (3) activesoft (4) takes up one slot, but still requires a skillwire (4) to run it.

It still allows you to run 8 skills at the same time, though, which was the original point made.

The whole thing becomes even crazier if you consider that a rating 4 skillsoft is technically available for free using the (admittedly "optional") freeware rules.
Now, I don't think regular old skillwires are particularly broken, but the crazy unwired rules made them absurd, but that seems to be par for the course for SR4 matrix rules...

[Muspellsheimr]

Restricted Gear: 5 Build Points
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs

Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)

Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.


Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)

[Mäx]

Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.

So what, where's the problem.
So she has her shoice of 8 ratin 4 skill at a time, where does the problems come from she still cannot really do much without the rest of the team.

[toturi]

She runs 8 now, a different 8 the next time interval she needs to change the previous 8 and yet a different 8...

[Stahlseele]

am i wrong when i am assuming, that this gets REALLY broken, when the character in question has hgh attributes to use with those skills AND some boni from other stuff too? O.o
like, 12 strength for a rating 4 skillwire, that's 16 dice right there?
agility would cover one heck load of skills . .

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

Yeah, that's the real problem with the whole SotA rules for programs.

BTW, you don't need a network contact - it doesn't even help you aquiring cracked software/patches by RAW. Though having a black hats network on hand is always handy.

[pbangarth]

Also, I am fairly certain the pirating rules are not optional, they are core.

Yeah, the words "... more options for using the Matrix..." (Unwired p. 93) led me to see the whole set as optional. I'm not sure that is the case.

Restricted Gear: 5 Build Points
4/4/4/4 Commlink: 2 Build Points
Move-By-Wire 2: 17 Build Points
Data Search 4 Activesoft + Browse 4 Program: 3 Build Points
High Lifestyle: 2 Build Points
3/1 Piracy Network Contact (National Influence, Broad Matrix Resources): 10 Build Points
1,200 Nuyen remaining: included in previous costs

Result:
39 Build Points
Buy hits for Rating 4 Pirated Activesofts (7 Combat Turns per Activesoft)
Minimum Starting Nuyen: 8,000 (Five R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Average Starting Nuyen: 13,000 (Eight R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)
Maximum Starting Nuyen: 18,000 (Twelve R4 Activesofts w/ R3 Pluscode)

Note: You can run eight of these Activesofts at a time. Future Activesofts w/ Pluscode cost 1,500 Nuyen each.

I follow your arithmetic here and while I am not too familiar with the Lifestyle options you use, the numbers add up. What I am concerned about is not the numbers but some of the underlying assumptions. A major thrust in the argument that skillwires break the game is that it is dead easy and cheap to build a character who can do a lot of things really well. The numbers above by themselves support that argument.

What isn't up there are some other costs. For example, the 3.0 Essence cost of the move-by-wire is more efficient than wired reflexes and skillwires together, but it is -not- inconsequential, particularly as this will be added to other implants commonly used by hackers and others. There are serious ramifications to having a low Essence which are usually glossed over in such calculations. Not the least of which is a damn tough time healing. One should include the Essence cost in discussions of how easy it is to be a certain type of character. A further issue is the belief that chargen itself is somehow broken.

This is all assuming your GM is being an asshole & not allowing Pirated Software during character generation (legal software is nearly useless, due to the traceability)

I approach this point from two angles. The first is that much of the gear acquired at chargen is traceable, from vehicles to weapons to software and more. The game has built into it the assumption that you have dealt with that in some way. Otherwise you would have to go through the 'piracy' angle for nearly everything you buy.

The second angle is related to the first. There are mechanisms built into the game which I think are the foundation for the assumption above. Rules for cracking code (SR4 p. 228) and patching code (U p. 118) are among those mechanisms that allow a character to deal with traceability issues regarding purchases of legal material. These are doable in down time or 'before time'. As an aside, these rules and others are prime examples of parts of the system that make a hacker actually -having- a LOG attribute worthwhile.

You and others have suggested that a GM would be unjust in not allowing Pirated Software at chargen because of the traceability of legal materials. Nobody seems to be complaining about the flipside...the GM allowing a character to make it to game play without suffering the consequences of blatantly illegal behaviour during chargen (such as acquiring all those restricted and forbidden weapons etc.), and in good old Traveller fashion killing or jailing the PC during chargen.

Peter

[cryptoknight]

What isn't up there are some other costs. For example, the 3.0 Essence cost of the move-by-wire is more efficient than wired reflexes and skillwires together, but it is -not- inconsequential, particularly as this will be added to other implants commonly used by hackers and others. There are serious ramifications to having a low Essence which are usually glossed over in such calculations. Not the least of which is a damn tough time healing. One should include the Essence cost in discussions of how easy it is to be a certain type of character. A further issue is the belief that chargen itself is somehow broken.

Eh? I see not much impact to healing... especially with a medkit.

Physical Damage
Make a Body x 2 (1 day) Extended Test. The character must
rest for the entire day for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness
also count). Each hit heals 1 box of Physical damage.

With the -1 dice pool for 3 points of essence loss (even -2 if you want)... a character with 4 body rolls 6 dice... A troll with 9 (soft capped) or Orc with 8 (soft capped) rolls 16/14 dice respectively... per day... a Human with 5 body... rolls 8... and aside from essence, that's pre-modifiers... such as using a lvl 6 medkit (cheap) or an autodoc, or a character with medical skills.

5 body = 10 dice
-2 (essence)
-1 (indoors)
+6 (medkit)
---
13 dice for a human with 5 body to heal... each day.

Trolls and Orcs roll another 8 or so dice...

This means if you get say 9 physical damage (huge bodily wounds and stuff) in two days... you get up and should be fine.

[Stahlseele]

Troll Healing has allways been kinda dumb . . especially stun vs physical . . and i say that as a fan of trolls . .
if i did not misunderstand something here, then he could recover from almost severed limbs faster than from a headache . .

[Malachi]

Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.

[cryptoknight]

Troll Healing has allways been kinda dumb . . especially stun vs physical . . and i say that as a fan of trolls . .
if i did not misunderstand something here, then he could recover from almost severed limbs faster than from a headache . .

You're correct on that one. The first time after I had transitioned from 3rd (really more like 2.5th) with its healing times to 4th... I was amazed to watch the players recover from wounds that used to take weeks...

Of course a 10 box stun damage has a time interval of 1 hour, instead of 1 day... so Figure the Troll has 9 body + 3 Will power... that's still 12 dice rolled every hour to recover 10 boxes... a full blown migraine headache goes away in about 3 hours.

[Muspellsheimr]

Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.

A hacker cannot intrude on an implant with disabled wireless connections unless he actually cuts you up to access it physically, in which case you are fucked anyways.

[HentaiZonga]

Eh? I see not much impact to healing... especially with a medkit.



With the -1 dice pool for 3 points of essence loss (even -2 if you want)... a character with 4 body rolls 6 dice... A troll with 9 (soft capped) or Orc with 8 (soft capped) rolls 16/14 dice respectively... per day... a Human with 5 body... rolls 8... and aside from essence, that's pre-modifiers... such as using a lvl 6 medkit (cheap) or an autodoc, or a character with medical skills.

5 body = 10 dice
-2 (essence)
-1 (indoors)
+6 (medkit)
---
13 dice for a human with 5 body to heal... each day.

Trolls and Orcs roll another 8 or so dice...

This means if you get say 9 physical damage (huge bodily wounds and stuff) in two days... you get up and should be fine.

You forgot to include the Wound Penalties.

[Warlordtheft]

Depending on Skillsofts for your character means you are relying on your technology. An intruding Hacker (if he gets into your system) could affect your character on a very fundamental level. Arguments can even be made that an intruding Hacker could turn such a character into a "bio-drone" manipulating all of their motor functions as they see fit. Rely on it at your own risk.

Ding! Ding! Ding!....that is the biggest drawback as far as I'm concerned. Also, as I recall you can't used edge on dice rolls made with skill wires. If players seem to want to abuse them anyway, you could also make them buy auto successes (4 dice=1 automatic success) with anything test involving the skillwires.

[Malachi]

A hacker cannot intrude on an implant with disabled wireless connections unless he actually cuts you up to access it physically, in which case you are fucked anyways.

Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink. How does your Skillwire system take skillsofts "offline" and load up new ones? By connecting to your Commlink, as part of your PAN. What does your Commlink have? A wireless antenna! Sure your Skillwire system is not wireless enabled, it might be connected to your Commlink via skinlink or wires, but your Commlink is still wireless. If a Hacker subverts your Commlink, they have access to all of your 'ware.

This exactly why I made the clarification to my players that skillsofts are Commlink programs. They simply "transmit" movement information to your Skillwire system in order to manipulate your limbs etc. The Skillsoft itself, the source of the information, still resides on your Commlink. I then (logically IMO) extended all of the rules concerned other Commlink programs to skillsofts: System but equal or exceed the Skillsoft rating, every Skillsoft counts as a "running" program for Response decrease purposes, etc.

[cryptoknight]

You forgot to include the Wound Penalties.

Nope... no wound penalty to the dice pool.

They don't have an example of healing physical wounds, but stun has the same dice pool penalties... and here's the example of that.


Page 242 in BBB has.

Fatima, a mage, is jumped by Humanis goons
and badly beaten, sustaining 8 boxes of Stun damage
(ouch). She decides to rest for an hour at a nearby
friend’s telesma shop. Her player rolls 4 (Body) + 5
(Willpower), and gets three hits. Three boxes of Stun
damage are healed, leaving her with five yet to heal.
She’s not in the greatest shape, but she should be able to
stumble home to finish healing.

If you're referring to first aid on yourself, then you need the wound penalties... but not if
1. you're letting the medkit heal you on its own
2. somebody else is administering first aid (like a Technomancer who never gets into combat).


Under using First Aid...

(Characters using First
Aid on themselves must apply their wound modifiers to
the test.)

[TeOdio]

You and others have suggested that a GM would be unjust in not allowing Pirated Software at chargen because of the traceability of legal materials. Nobody seems to be complaining about the flipside...the GM allowing a character to make it to game play without suffering the consequences of blatantly illegal behaviour during chargen (such as acquiring all those restricted and forbidden weapons etc.), and in good old Traveller fashion killing or jailing the PC during chargen.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
I wouldn't allow any player to purchase software @ pirated costs at chargen. I'm even rarely moved to allow second hand and "custom" equipment. For me, I see Gear as just stuff you start with. If a player wants to argue that they would never use "legit" software I'll buy the argument, but they still have pay for the gear they start with like everyone else. Then they can call it whatever they want. Once game play begins, they can go for broke. I don't usually throw around Monty Hall money so it is fun to sit back and watch them save up for that one more piece of software/gear/foci that will give them that edge.
But then again, my players readily agree I'm heartless.... hmm.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[pbangarth]

Edit: TeOdio beat me by, what, 5 seconds?

@Malachi : The program swapping could be done by direct link methods which insulates the programs against hacking.

@all and sundry: By healing effects, I was mostly thinking of on-the-spot, during a run healing, such as in the spell. At home in the comfort of your own nurse .. I mean bed, yes it my not matter so much.

Look, I think we are approaching the cost at chargen the wrong way. The BPs available for purchase of gear don't necessarily represent actual money the character has before she starts running. 50 BP for gear therefore doesn't mean 250,000 nuyen in your pocket. How many people would become runners if they had that kind of money?

The BPs are an arbitrary representation of all kinds of pre-gaming life that added up to giving the character a bunch of gear at chargen. Inherited from daddy... stolen from the neighbour... mustered out from the military... and yes, maybe some of it bought at the neighbourhood Radio Shack. It is converted into nuyen to use the purchase scale already provided, probably at least in part to preclude having to develop a second scale for chargen.

So using the full price at chargen for software or armor or whatever is an arbitrary accounting system to provide a reasonable limit to the stuff you start with. That's all.

Peter

[TeOdio]

I obviously agree 100% with Peter.

[pbangarth]

TeOdio, is there an avatar for you elsewhere, TeAmo? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Peter

[Malachi]

@Malachi : The program swapping could be done by direct link methods which insulates the programs against hacking.

Direct link to what? To completely the programs you'd need to put them on a Commlink with wireless disabled, then fiber-linked to a datajack. Now there are some other issues to work out like: how exactly do you activate that program to tell to swap out your skillsofts? If you're doing it "manually" via pushing buttons then that means an extra action (Complex) before the Skillsoft swap occurs. If you have the off-line 'link plugged in via cable to a datajack you could do it via mental commands. However, you have to make sure to specify that that datajack also has its wireless disabled (it's on by default) and that you are not using that datajack to connect to any wireless-enabled device. If you, say, also use that datajack to process mental commands to your other Commlink which is Wireless enabled, than a Hacker could "node hop" from the Wireless Commlink, through the datajack, to the off-line link. In order to be completely safe you need to make sure the entire "circuit" of Skillwire, datajack, and Commlink are completely cut off from anything else that is Wireless.

[TeOdio]

There was, but she stuck a knife in my back.
Now that's AMOR!

[Cain]

Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink.

Wrong. You store all of them on your skillwires. Skillwires have unlimited memory storage too; they can hold as many activesotfs as you want. You just can only have Rating x 2 active at any given moment.

And your skillwires need never be exposed to the Matrix, there's probably a dozen ways around it. You just shut off the wireless, but keep a copy of your skillsofts on your commlink. When those are updated, you turn the wirelss back on, and patch all your softs.

[Dr Funfrock]

And thus I am reminded of Batman vs Prometheus.

"I hacked your skills software. You have now the physical coordination and agility of Professor Stephen Hawkings."
"That's cheating."
"Not cheating. Winning."

[Malachi]

Wrong. You store all of them on your skillwires. Skillwires have unlimited memory storage too; they can hold as many activesotfs as you want. You just can only have Rating x 2 active at any given moment.

And your skillwires need never be exposed to the Matrix, there's probably a dozen ways around it. You just shut off the wireless, but keep a copy of your skillsofts on your commlink. When those are updated, you turn the wirelss back on, and patch all your softs.

That's another reason why I have houseruled that Skillsofts must be run on your Commlink like any other "program." They simply "transmit" information to your Skillwires. It's a subtle difference but I think it helps tip things not so grossly in favor or Skillsofts.