Skillwires Abuse, Random thought Options

[Stahlseele]

for even more saftey, patch all of the internal stuff only to one datajack and connect the needed comlink via cable if needed be.
just remember to switch off wireless before connecting to jack . .

[KCKitsune]

Ok, you've got 8 skillsofts active and you want to swap in another 8. Where are all your skillsofts stored? Your Commlink. How does your Skillwire system take skillsofts "offline" and load up new ones? By connecting to your Commlink, as part of your PAN. What does your Commlink have? A wireless antenna! Sure your Skillwire system is not wireless enabled, it might be connected to your Commlink via skinlink or wires, but your Commlink is still wireless. If a Hacker subverts your Commlink, they have access to all of your 'ware.

OK, you want to store a butt tonne of Softs so you don't have to access the Matrix during a run. Use a datachip:

Can hold hundreds of gigapulses of data in a small finger-sized chip, accessible by any electronic device.

Carry 4 of them and you're good to go. Total cost for carrying those 4 chips... 4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Wasabi]

Skillsofts are Commlink programs and subject to all of the same rules as any of the Common or Hacking programs. You must have a System rating equal to or exceeding the rating of the Skillsoft you are running. Skillsofts that are running count as a running program on your Commlink and are subject to Response degradation rules. Shutting down a single skillsoft takes a Free action. Activating a single Skillsoft takes a Complex Action. The information from the Skillsoft is transmitted wirelessly to the Skillwire receiver unless the user has a Skinlink or specifically tells me they are running a fiberoptic cable to their datajack from their Commlink. As programs, Skillsofts are subject to all the vulnerabilities of other Commlink programs: they can be Crashed, Spoofed, or Corrupted ("For some reason, I can't fire a pistol anymore!")

Isn't this by the book... I thought only Virtual Shooter, Virtual Pets, and stuff like that were exempted from being limited by System. Since skillsofts (active or know) are not in the excluded-from-the-rule list they are INcluded in my mind. That doesnt mean you cant get a rating 4 cracked OS and rating 4 cracked Firewall and load them all on cheapo drop comms with no wireless but it does mean they, as programs, need a home.

[Cain]

That's another reason why I have houseruled that Skillsofts must be run on your Commlink like any other "program." They simply "transmit" information to your Skillwires. It's a subtle difference but I think it helps tip things not so grossly in favor or Skillsofts.

Do you require IC programs to only be run on a commlink?

Of course not, the books clearly explain that you can run programs on anything with a Device rating or a set of Matrix stats. So, if you're not allowing people to tun programs on things other than your commlink, you've completely changed the way Matrix security works.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

for even more saftey, patch all of the internal stuff only to one datajack and connect the needed comlink via cable if needed be.

In SR4, 'safety' means not haveing a data jack.

At all.

[Stahlseele]

an old datajack?
one of those pre wireless everything ones?
you don't even need an active link O.o
just download soft on comlink, from there onto chip, take out of comlink, insert into jack, load skills into wire-cache, format chip.
rinse and repeat ad nauseum? o.O

[KCKitsune]

In SR4, 'safety' means not haveing a data jack.

At all.

If you have a datajack with wireless removed completely then you're good to go. It's only when you have a datajack with wireless that you might run into problems.

I know that my cybered mage with a datajack in his cyber hand had the wireless completely removed from the jack... and then slaved to his commlink (running rating 6 firewall and rating 6 encrypt)

[Malachi]

Do you require IC programs to only be run on a commlink?

Of course not, the books clearly explain that you can run programs on anything with a Device rating or a set of Matrix stats. So, if you're not allowing people to tun programs on things other than your commlink, you've completely changed the way Matrix security works.

Actually Unwired changed it and put it in the purview of the GM.

Peripherals use the
same rules as standard
nodes (see Devices and
Software Ratings, p. 206,
SR4), with some restrictions.
They are only able to
run a single persona and can
only run programs they are
designed to use.

Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.

[Cain]

Actually Unwired changed it and put it in the purview of the GM.

Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.

Even then, some things-- like skillwires-- are clearly more complex than the RFID tags in your underpants. IC/Agents being about as complex a program as you can get, it seems fair to say that you can run them on your cyberware. In fact, it's a perfectly common trick. If you start slapping that down, you're seriously altering the way matrix security works.

[pbangarth]

Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.

Malachi, your quote from Unwired says :

"Peripherals use the
same rules as standard
nodes (see Devices and
Software Ratings, p. 206,
SR4), with some restrictions.
They are only able to
run a single persona and can
only run programs they are
designed to use."

Yet you say "the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft". Well what is a skillwire system designed to run if not skillsofts?

Peter

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Every few years, someone in my group runs skillwires. I have them on my current character, but in twenty years, this is the first time I've ever had them. We've only played once, so I have no idea how they're going to work, but I've never heard anyone say anything like, "OMG, you've got to get skillwires."

I think what it comes down to is that I don't need a skillchip for anything in the arena I'm good with, and I don't care about anything else. In other words, I'm good with a gun or two, why do I need to be good with any other guns? And someone else can bust that maglock. I'm not going to spend the essence on the off-chance our intrusion specialist is off that night. On the other hand, I can see needing it for a small group. If your team only has three members, it's probably a good buy. But your GM should never offer you a job you can't handle (except as a plot point), so having the skillz just increases your options.

Someone said that he bans skillwires because everybody gets them. What about anything that grants you IPs? My current group consists of eight players, and only one doesn't have initiative enhancements (the face). Should we think about banning (or nerfing) them?

What I think is more interesting is that the ones who get skillwires are the magically active. Usually it's the mage who spent all his build points on magic, and didn't have any left for skills. To me, that's a little unrealistic. I did it myself, though. I'm playing a ghoul adept in a 360 BP campaign. I had to buy cyber eyes, and only had about 50 points to spend on skills, so I went ahead and spent some further essence on the wires.

That pirated software thing is kinda weird. Why don't you just nerf that, instead of saying skillwires are broken? You're the GM, so you're the one setting consequences for have "traceable" programs. Why should or shouldn't any gear or ware be a liability? The rigger can just file the serial numbers off his Steel Lynx, right? *eyeroll*

[KCKitsune]

Now, of course, it is up to the GM to determine if a Peripheral node (such as a Skillwire system) has an OS that is "designed" to run Agent programs. In my case I have ruled that the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft, but that's definitely my rule.

Uh Malachi, have you not read the Cluster rules (pg 55) in Unwired? If you cluster together your cyberware then you can have a node that's pretty damn good.

Once clustered, the group of nodes is treated as a single node with effective Firewall and System ratings equal to the lowest respective ratings of the nodes. The cluster’s Response is equal to the average of the node’s Response ratings.

This can be pretty damn nice for running all those programs that you don't want cluttering up your 'Link. sensor software, knowsofts, tacnet, data and map softs, Skillsofts... the list is pretty long.

[Malachi]

Yet you say "the Skillwire system itself doesn't "run" the Skillsoft". Well what is a skillwire system designed to run if not skillsofts?

It's a house-rule of mine. I say the Skillsoft runs on the Commlink and transmits information to the Skillwire system.

Uh Malachi, have you not read the Cluster rules (pg 55) in Unwired? If you cluster together your cyberware then you can have a node that's pretty damn good.

This can be pretty damn nice for running all those programs that you don't want cluttering up your 'Link. sensor software, knowsofts, tacnet, data and map softs, Skillsofts... the list is pretty long.

Sure I've read the clustering rules. But if the GM rules that the clustered nodes can't run the software you want to run, then it won't run regardless of how many you cluster together. If a Toaster can't run an Agent program, 500 Toasters still can't run an Agent program. Unwired leaves the decision with the GM: is the device "Peripheral" or "Standard" and if "Peripheral" can it run the software you want it to run? Those are the GM's decisions.

[Cain]

That leads to an interesting question. Have they ever come up with rules for using more than one commlink at a time?

[KCKitsune]

That leads to an interesting question. Have they ever come up with rules for using more than one commlink at a time?

Just slave the other commlinks to the master 'Link and go from there. I had a character concept called "Nexi-Man" with two Raptor cyberlegs and a Commlink built into each one of them. He also had a commlink in his head. The two in the legs were slaved to the one in his head.

[KCKitsune]

Sure I've read the clustering rules. But if the GM rules that the clustered nodes can't run the software you want to run, then it won't run regardless of how many you cluster together. If a Toaster can't run an Agent program, 500 Toasters still can't run an Agent program. Unwired leaves the decision with the GM: is the device "Peripheral" or "Standard" and if "Peripheral" can it run the software you want it to run? Those are the GM's decisions.

Actually Malachi, on page 48 just before the heading "Standard Node" it says this about Peripheral nodes:

Peripheral nodes can only run one persona at a time, they are not designed for multiple users. For this reason, they only have admin accounts, but these accounts do not receive the +6 threshold modiier for hacking (treat them as standard accounts). They can, however, be clustered with other minor nodes, acting in concert as a single super-node (see Clusters, p. 55).

What is a "super-node"? I'm thinking that it's a commlink or a Nexi. So by the text, it seems that if I cluster together my cyberware then I can have a node capable of running commlink programs. Why do it otherwise?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If you have a datajack with wireless removed[...]

...then by RAW, it is still an enforcable, direct entry point for any of your cyber implants and of course, your brain as soon as someone plugs in - or hacks the things you plugged in.

Just don't do it.

[Mäx]

as soon as someone plugs in

That's probaply the least of you problems at that point.

[Stahlseele]

if someone can do that, he can just as well ram a knife into you.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

No, it adds to those problems by making them quite faster and much more concealable - in short, easier.

[Warlordtheft]

Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.

[Malachi]

What is a "super-node"? I'm thinking that it's a commlink or a Nexi. So by the text, it seems that if I cluster together my cyberware then I can have a node capable of running commlink programs. Why do it otherwise?

Yeah, "super-node" is another one of those terms that gets thrown out in SR books that has a nebulous definition. I suppose by Clustering those "Peripheral" nodes together they can run programs that they can run much more efficiently. It's still up to the GM what they can run, however.

I believe the whole point of designating things as "Peripheral" nodes was to attempt to hinder the "Agent Smith" and "hack-a-stack" "problems" with the Matrix. If all Peripheral nodes can run Agents, or even a small cluster of Peripheral nodes, then the "problem" comes back. I put "problem" in quotes because I think its debatable whether it deserves that label or not... but that's not for this thread.

[Malachi]

Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.

Hey, I like this idea. I think the successes should be limited to the rating of the Skillsoft itself. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Dr Funfrock]

That is a pretty neat little rule. At the moment I'm happy with Skillwires as they are, but if I actually found that they were being abused, that's the fix I would use (especially as I'm fond of that house rule for programs and hacking).

In particular it kiboshes the whole "stupidly high stat + rating 1 skillsoft" deal that people were moaning about earlier, so if a player is using that particular abuse it's an obvious answer (not even sure if it is an abuse, but ymmv).

[ahammer]

Just thinking too much, but in the hacking rules one of the alternatives is to have the program rating limit the number of successes that a character can get (and using hacking/cybercombat/etc/etc plus logic for most tests). If you applied a rule limiting the number of successes (not net) to the rating of the skillwire then it would also work. So a rating 4 pistols skillwire could only ever get you four successes.

do you think it would underpower the skill wire to use this and also say a skill wire only adds 1/2 it ratting dice rounded up to the roll.


ie a rating 3 skillsoft would add 2 dice and be cap at 3 success