facilities, more player bitching Options

[child of insanit...]

ok, perhaps you guys can help me out with an argument with a player. a facility doesn't allow mass production does it? he's finally bought himself a gunsmithing facility and the first thing he did was mass produce 50k worth of Ares Vindicator's. he also wants to be able to do this without rolls. i'm going to tell him to stuff that, unless someone can help me out?

[Malachi]

A facility is just the (manual) tools for doing the job, it does not constitute a fully automated factory.

[Snow_Fox]

That's what a facility is for, BUT there are lots of problems with that players plan, like getting the almost certainly pattened material that would go into it, getting the raw materials, and my personal favorite, the idea that Ares wouldn't pay for a run to prevent someone from flooding the market with knock offs

[child of insanit...]

That's what a facility is for, BUT there are lots of problems with that players plan, like getting the almost certainly pattened material that would go into it, getting the raw materials, and my personal favorite, the idea that Ares wouldn't pay for a run to prevent someone from flooding the market with knock offs

biggest problem with that is that the character would likely have access to that material. mats for making a vindicator aren't too far out of the ordinary, and the knock off's wouldn't really be knock-off's. she's ex-ares gunsmith. that's what's pissing me off. the biggest problem is whether or not a facility is different than a factory. can he really automate it and pump out any gun he can design in mass quantity's?

[Muspellsheimr]

A Facility is different from a Factory. A Factory is automated mass-production. A Facility is a large working space with all the tools necessary for constructing heavy-duty or complex equipment. A Facility does not allow automated mass-production - the character must still personally build/modify/repair the equipment; the Facility just makes it possible (with possible bonuses).

[WeaverMount]

Snow_fox has the right idea. A facility does allow for mass production. And yes if you have labor, materials, industrial utilities, vendors all lined up it is completely push button. But getting that lined up is not trivial at all. Fixers don't deal ingots. A rating 6 fake SIN isn't going to get you a industrial power connection. etc

You should ask the table if they want to start playing Sixth World Tycoon or find an unacceptable way to back burner or remove the facility.

[The Jake]

Frankly I have zero problem telling a player "no". Sometimes common sense has to prevail to reign in a player's greater stupidities. That said, what is the problem with your player manufacturing Vindicators? Does he plan on selling them? I say allow it and give him all the headaches and problems that go with it.

Here's a few issues I can think of, off the top of my head:
Play around with the volumes he can produce (he can only produce x amount - whatever x is. Increasing x becomes problematic either based on the size of the facility, storage, etc),
Storage/transport of the produced items (how many does he want and where will he put them?),
Raw materials for mass production (how/where does he get it without drawing attention?),
Ammunition (even if he makes the guns, depleted uranium ammo isn't easy to get),
Designs (does he have the Vindicator design or did he design it himself? If so, how reliable is it? The GM should be rolling this test if he's designing it himself).
Issues with legality (Lone Star/FBI catching wind of some runner mass producing milspec gear),
Organised crime (some runner is mass producing milspec gear),
Other team mates getting shitty at the amount of attention this draws to their team (if I had a team mate who wanted to do stuff like this I'd probably start distancing myself from him if he wasn't smart).

Depending on how silly he gets, this could be a lot of fun to play out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On a side note, I have one player who comes up with the most bizarre tangents that border on game breaking sometimes. I just tell him no if its a really dumb idea. If I occasionally indulge their nuances, I usually counter balance said idea with a challenge of equal value (aka. law of opposites) - like what I'm suggesting above.

- J.

[Fabe]

biggest problem with that is that the character would likely have access to that material. mats for making a vindicator aren't too far out of the ordinary, and the knock off's wouldn't really be knock-off's. she's ex-ares gunsmith. that's what's pissing me off.

doesn't matter, if she's no longer working for Ares in Ares owned operated weapons factory then its not a official Ares product and her former employer would not take to kindly to her reproducing their products with out authorization.

the biggest problem is whether or not a facility is different than a factory. can he really automate it and pump out any gun he can design in mass quantity's?

I would say a facility is not automated and would cost quite a lot of money to do so. so while they could build almost any weapon the have to plans and parts for it would take a good chunk of time to do so.they can not switch every thing on before leaving for a run and then come home to enough weapons to arm half the Barron.

[Snow_Fox]

Snow_fox has the right idea. A facility does allow for mass production. And yes if you have labor, materials, industrial utilities, vendors all lined up it is completely push button. But getting that lined up is not trivial at all. Fixers don't deal ingots. A rating 6 fake SIN isn't going to get you a industrial power connection. etc

You should ask the table if they want to start playing Sixth World Tycoon or find an unacceptable way to back burner or remove the facility.

right, and $50 in miniguns is not that many.

just because she worked at Ares doesn't mean she's got hte machines. I mean think of it this way, mechanic knows cars inside out, he worked for ford for many years, that still doens't mean he can eaisly make Mustangs

[HentaiZonga]

Actually, at $150,000 in Shadowrun money, a facility is a factory, especially when you add in the Lifestyle costs to house the damn thing.

A Facility absolutely lets you manufacture huge banks of stuff, without rolls. Or rather, you'll make the rolls for the first few prototypes, and then just churn the rest out based on those hits.

[child of insanit...]

well then... interesting ideas. thanks. how much would the plans for a weapon such as a vindicator go for?

[The Jake]

Actually, at $150,000 in Shadowrun money, a facility is a factory, especially when you add in the Lifestyle costs to house the damn thing.

A Facility absolutely lets you manufacture huge banks of stuff, without rolls. Or rather, you'll make the rolls for the first few prototypes, and then just churn the rest out based on those hits.

Just because one PC has the facility, even the machinery, does not necessitate he's addressed all the logistic issues of managing a fully automated, heavy weapons production facility.

- J.

[Crusher Bob]

Also worth considering is the raw materials cost (+ labor) of the stuff he makes in his shop. Since he is not buying his raw materials on an industrial scale, they will cost a bit more. Also, the marcinal costs of production at a full fledged factory will be much lower. It may turn out that the facility only lets you make stuff at a significant fraction of the items retail cost.

If you are making stuff you can't get otherwise (or is just plain illegal), or want to customize stuff then the facility is a good deal. If you plan to resell the stuff you make, then you'll want something with a high added value. And making copies of weapons that are mass produced in automated factories do not count as high added value items.

[The Jake]

If you are making stuff you can't get otherwise (or is just plain illegal), or want to customize stuff then the facility is a good deal. If you plan to resell the stuff you make, then you'll want something with a high added value. And making copies of weapons that are mass produced in automated factories do not count as high added value items.

High 'added' value, no. But highly desirably, high availability, highly restricted milspec weaponry - oh god yes....

I'd be wanting high value security for said facility too....

- J.

[WeaverMount]

Another note. A move like this would bring about every singling max level in existence. Nothing stirs the lethargic powers that be to drop hammers like a credible threat to there power base. Operating a weapon's facility means that the PC is now involved at the highest level of military power and industrial capitalism. A tiny microscopic spec of a player in the two biggest league baddest league ever invented. If I had a player try this I'd let them play Yojimbo for while. Then I'd have some Corp make them an offer they can't refuse. If they hold out the corp moves to wipe them out that simple. If the PCs can quickly find allies that can protect them, or can make a deal that keeps them in the loop to there satisfaction great. If not Tungsten, on the house!

[Crusher Bob]

Heh, it's like saying that Rwanda's ability to make machetes for dirt cheap will cause the US to come and take them over. since dirt cheap machetes are a threat to the US military-industrial complex...

[WeaverMount]

Heh, it's like saying that Rwanda's ability to make machetes for dirt cheap will cause the US to come and take them over. since dirt cheap machetes are a threat to the US military-industrial complex...

ummm no. It's like saying the US would drop hammers on a criminals mass producing mini guns in Seattle ... which is basically what the OP is talking about

[overchord]

I've always used car-facilities to make the clearest analogy for myself and teams i play with.
A facility in that context is -to me - a very large garage with virtually every single piece of mechanical tools you use to repair and tune cars. It also holds metal workshop elements so you can produce replacement parts for vehicles.
However, a car factory is an entirely different construct of a long assembly line of parts put out at a high rate. You'd need as a very minimum some extra drones to form an assembly line and a whole lotta extra space to set up as a factory. And while space might not be a problem - it might attract a lot of attention - so you need extra security, perhaps you actually need to start hiring the guys you normally take out on runs. You'll also need shipping to clients, cargo manifests if they are going anywhere outside the city for example. On top of that as already mentioned, sourcing raw materials on industrial scales is not trivial either - simply because you are operating in a completely different circle of people of of a sudden, and there will be a lot of corp monitoring of these markets as well...


Anyways, just my 2 cents

[The Jopp]

First of all I assume that you and your players play �Shadowrun� and not �Corporate Management 2070�.

IF you play “Corporate Management 2070� we might want to look up a few details.

The player have access to a WEAPON PRODUCTION FACILITY…

Right, this would be a BUILDING which is a stationary building unless the player have hires a HUGE amount of cargo vehicles to move every piece of machinery out of said facility.

If the player have NOT moved equipment to an undisclosed location then I have a feeling that the powers that be (ie government, corps and Lonestar) have a good surveillance over said WEAPON PRODUCTION FACILITY and will inform the player of his legal (or lack of) if he/she illegally floods the market with weapons.

I’m pretty sure that he/she is looking at serious jailtime and/or terrorism charges.

Not to mention probable tax fraud, weapon manufacturing without license, weapon smuggling…

The list can be made LOONG…

Just because a player have access to something does not give the character a free ride. If they manage to create a fake front for said company and manufacture pink fluffy bunnies while shipping guns then all is fine and dandy.

[raggedhalo]

My feeling is that a Facility is enough space for one person to make one thing at a time. A vehicle facility's more like a large garage than the production line.

If they want a fully-automated factory, though, I say give it to them. And then have it taken over by a malicious free sprite or AI or something. They'll regret all those miniguns that suddenly start with propulsion systems and the like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Larme]

Gunny surveyed her sparkling new shadowfactory with a proud smile. There it was, her baby, all ready to start churning out miniguns for the cause of chaos, mayhem, and her own cred accounts. Her heart swelling with pride, she flipped up the cover on the "production start" button. It was a nice, classic, big red button, and it gave a satisfying click as she triumphantly pounded it in with her fist.

With a whine of turbines spinning to life, the factory line started! Soon the building was full of the industrious clanking and hammering and stamping of busy machines, all going about their automated business of making Gunny rich.

But there was another sound. Faint at first, she thought it was a problem with a motor somewhere. She sighed, annoyed that she would have to do repairs already, but the sound grew louder, more distinct. She tilted her head, straining to hear, but in a few seconds that was no longer necessary--the unmistakable 'thup thup thup' of choppers!

Gunny's stomach sank, her mind going numb. Could it really be? Could it be over as soon as it began? Her body acting on its own, she barely noticed that she was running haphazardly for the emergency exit. She had just a few seconds to note the three Ares gunships surrounding her building before the world erupted in a hellstorm of fire and falling shrapnel. Would she survive? It hardly seemed to matter anymore.

In the shadows, it's easy to think you're powerful. You've got toys, and juju, and sometimes even industrial factories. And the best part is, you have the freedom to use them all. But illusions are dangerous, and liable to be shattered at any time. The runner who forgets the shape of the world is the runner who ends up under a pile of rubble, her shattered life's work all around her. As much as we hate to admit it, the only safe place is within the shadow of the powers that be -- step outside of it, and much like an ant, they will crush you as an afterthought.

OOC: So yeah, I would have told my player beforehand, "if you follow through with this plan, military grade helicopters will blow it up. Your character knows this, because it's obvious." The shadowrunner's best defense is to stay off the radar. If they don't know about you, or they don't care about you, they won't bother to swat you. But things like factories, fortresses, and other highly conspicuous ops will get you killed, if only to make an example of you. Black facilities do exist, but not without protection. If she had an agreement with UCAS to block Ares forces coming to destroy it, for instance, then it would work just dandy. Though it would take more than just one Shadowrunner making an etiquette roll to make that happen, and to make that last, because Ares might be able to sue for permission to bomb the place, or they might just make an unauthorized strike on UCAS territory, and there's probably nothing UCAS could do about it.

[Blade]

A lot of things have been said already but I just want to insist on one point:
A character doing this is not a shadowrunner. He's an entrepreneur (criminal entrepreneur in that case). It's exactly the same as a mage spending his time enchanting things, or a street-doc character.

What if a player tells you that his SINner character with high mental attributes will try to get a nice job at some corp or another? What if a player tells you that his street-samurai will enlist in an army?
Even if they could, that'd mean they wouldn't be running the Shadows.

What's the point of this facility? I can see two:
1. It can become an interesting plot hook.
2. It's another source of income for the character.

Number 1 is good, but it means that it'll impact your games. Number 2 isn't very interesting: nuyens are, among other things, a way to "reward players" and to let them develop their character further, a bit like karma. They're also a nice incentive to explain why the runner is risking his life. If the character has another source of income, these two things become meaningless. So in that case, the only outcome is that the character runs without any reason to (from a Roleplayer PoV) and/or is unbalanced compared to the other characters (from a Rollplayer PoV).

So I'd advise you to have a little talk with your players to see how they want to play the game.

[Straight Razor]

Well if you want to be far about it. i'd call it and investment. lets face it, if i put 200,000K into a business i'd expect residuals.
tell her the the facility is a permanent lifestyle investment. As long as she runs the company legit enough to keep it off the radar she'll get 10% of her total investment, including future "upgrades" to the facility, back every year. Or .83% per month. so that's 8.3Y per 1,000 per month.
so if she spent 65K on start up shed get 539.5 a month
if she wants to make more she can deal in more illegal and volital markets, but she runs the risk of getting attacked by cop and crook alike.

Of course she can also use it for making build repair skill checks for what ever nefarious deeds she's up to. she owns the place after all. As for why she only gets 8.3% per month on her investment. simple over head. employees, permits, materials, vendors, borbes, and yes security all take out there fare share of the gross.

[WeaverMount]

Well if you want to be far about it. i'd call it and investment. lets face it, if i put 200,000K into a business i'd expect residuals.
tell her the the facility is a permanent lifestyle investment. As long as she runs the company legit enough to keep it off the radar she'll get 10% of her total investment, including future "upgrades" to the facility, back every year. Or .83% per month. so that's 8.3Y per 1,000 per month.
so if she spent 65K on start up shed get 539.5 a month
if she wants to make more she can deal in more illegal and volital markets, but she runs the risk of getting attacked by cop and crook alike.

Of course she can also use it for making build repair skill checks for what ever nefarious deeds she's up to. she owns the place after all. As for why she only gets 8.3% per month on her investment. simple over head. employees, permits, materials, vendors, borbes, and yes security all take out there fare share of the gross.

This actually gave me an idea for how to model a little bit of an management game. Give the player 10% (or a little less even like 5%). Explain the low return as a function of how un-networked the business is. You currently have no major buyers, no major whole materials, no privately owned residental commersal developments to recupe 115% of wages paid. etc. The team can then do runs get better assets, and the return goes up a little.

[masterofm]

Plot hooks certainly work, but when I think of how much it costs to get a car in Nuyen then it just makes me compare dollar to nuyen on a 1 to 1 ratio (10-15k will net you a car in SR.) What will 150k get you today? It might get you a large car shop with tools, but it's not a multi million automated facility with drones that crawl around and fix any machinery that might get broken, or the materials to smelt and create an ares alpha all on its own. A facility will let you have a really big machine shop, but lets face it, it still takes player time to create the weapons. The biggest thing is the character is a gun smith, not an ex-ares weapons automated production facility everything worker.

Having it as something that the party sets up to create stable income and then move on to some different runs can be an interesting way to create a self sustained facility and might be a nice story arch, but in the end your the GM and if you don't want to do it your players can't force you. Compromise with the players, but tell them making an automated weapons factory is a crap ton of hard work and a facility will not net you anywhere near a weapons factory. If they want to upgrade it to a factory I think it would also be risky too, as you would have to steal quite a few schematics for automated machinery, repair drones, computer programs to set the whole thing up, a supply contract for the raw materials, and the party might have to steal some of the machinery from Ares itself... unless they want to dish out two mill for the automated smelting and pressing unit.... or they could pay a hell of a lot less for forty year old machinery that is being auctioned off at an old Ares plant that is closing down (because the machinery is now vastly out of date and can't make Ares Alphas anyways.)

Although a tactical strategy game if done right for Shadowrun would be pretty cool. You could play as a AAA corp in a city and battle it out to gain control of the entire areas resources.... like syndicate wars.... only cooler.