Alternatives to the Pass system, Attempting to make 4 IPs != 4x the awesome Options

[Dashifen]

@Browncoatone:
What about people with 1 pass? Their action doesn't happen until the next turn? That seems to be too harsh. In this, you might as well just divide everyone's IP by 2.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

There was a piece of fluff in the 3rd ed Wired Reflexes section that gave my GM this idea. This only works for some groups though. Basically if anyone ever makes a suggestion for the player, in or out of character, the player has to make some sort of composure or quick thinking test to avoid doing it on the spot.

A classic one was:
"Drop the frag grenade at our feet, we have impact armor and the devilrats don't."

Roll roll roll.

"I guess I don't see anything wrong with that plan at first glance."

Kaboom

[tete]

Look, I just liked the SR3 system better, is using that too much to ask for?
You roll initiative. Generally your initiative is quite high and varies quite a bit. Initiative begins at the highest roll and sldies downwards giving you an action when the tracker hits your initiative entry. You gain additional entries every 10 below your value. Ware gives you lots of extra Initiative to make extra passes likely.

Forseeable pros
• SR3 players will want to have your children
• Normal folks can get multiple passes
• Sams may not get the full effect of their Init enhacement without some personal work
  
  Foreseeable cons
• Isn't this thread meant to be about reducing the owningness of extra Passes?
• Sams go first. ALWAYS.

If I'm reading this right thats the SR2 and not SR3 System...
SR2= Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, 23, then 13, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 3
SR3 = Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 23, then 13, & 3
I may be reading it wrong but as worded I read that you go on your action and then at 10 lower rather than everyone goes in order then subtract 10 and rotate through again.

[Ryu]

I like the IP-base 2 suggestion the most. Absolutely KISS, and IP-enhancers are still great to have, while the unaugmented get a chance.

[Heath Robinson]

If I'm reading this right thats the SR2 and not SR3 System...
SR2= Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, 23, then 13, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 3
SR3 = Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 23, then 13, & 3
I may be reading it wrong but as worded I read that you go on your action and then at 10 lower rather than everyone goes in order then subtract 10 and rotate through again.

My apologies, I never played SR3. I'll go correct that. It will now become "Look, I just liked the old system better, is using that too much to ask for" and the modifications to make it into the SR3 system will be under a variant.

Oh, and you're reading it absolutely correctly.

[Caadium]

I know I recently posted this in another thread, but since this one is all about alternates to initiative I'll give you the houserule I've used for a long time thats worked well for my groups.

Standard RAW IP system, but in a different order. Instead of doing pass 1, then 2, then 3, and finally 4 I have reorganized them to: 3, 1, 4, 2. I've not had to deal with 5 IP yet, so I'm not sure exactly where I'd put it. It would probably go at the very end, making it 3, 1, 4, 2, 5 but I'd have to test it out.

This system came out of my hybrid system I started in SR3 that was a blend of SR2 and SR3. For my SR3 variant there were only ever 2 IP, and a person could possibly act more than once in each IP. In the first IP you would go on your init score, then if you could subtract 20 from the score you went again. Then, there was a 2nd IP that started out at your original initiative minus 10 (again going again if you could subtract 20). Using Tete's example from above I'lle show you how I mixed them:

If I'm reading this right thats the SR2 and not SR3 System...
SR2= Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, 23, then 13, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 3
SR3 = Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; Sam goes on 33, now Mage goes on 8, now Sam goes on 23, then 13, & 3
I may be reading it wrong but as worded I read that you go on your action and then at 10 lower rather than everyone goes in order then subtract 10 and rotate through again.

Sam gets 33, Mage gets 8; 1st IP Sam goes on 33, then on 13, then Mage on 8. 2nd IP Sam goes on 23 and 3.

[tete]

My apologies, I never played SR3.

LOL then I applaud you for trying to write about rules you never played! That would be difficult!

[The Monk]

If you like the two IP base from above, take a look at the following. This is the result of evolving that over quite a lot of playing.

Here's what I particularly like:
It makes Dodge useful
Its intuitive and easy to keep track of (especially if you use sticks or cards or whatever as a tool)
One IP characters aren't so gimped, and can spread or use his actions in multiple phases
Characters stuck with one simple action at the end of the round can roll it over to the next round

Basically, everyone has Sticks which equal their Initiative Pass plus one ("why Sticks" you ask, well keep reading). So someone with one IP will have two Sticks, while someone with three IPs will have four Sticks. A character can spend one Stick to perform a Simple Action or two to perform a Complex Action. Initiative is rolled normally (but we only roll for initiative once and keep it for the rest of the combat).

The Combat Round is done in three Phases. Up to two Sticks can be used in one Phase (for two Simple or one Complex Actions as normal, but Sticks don't have to be used, for example you can spend one Stick to perform one Simple Action during that Phase, saving other Sticks until another Phase, or you can use none at all). After your Initiative, a player can delay their actions to a lower Initiative, but in every Pass the Initiative is counted down from highest to lowest again. One Stick can be carried over to the next Combat Round (it is then added to your Sticks for the new round), other unused Sticks are lost.

To keep things flowing, I bought a bundle of colored tongue suppressors (they look like large popsicle sticks), the sticks are used to keep track of your, um... Sticks. During a Combat Round, players use up their Sticks until they have none left. They can use them in any of the three Phases, and they can save one to carry over to the next Round.

They can also give up two Sticks to go Full Defense at any time in the Combat Round. This gives the benefit of Full Defense to the player for the entire Combat Round (or whatever is left of it), however Full Defense has to incorporate the Dodge skill. This means that Full Defense is not an Interrupt Action, but more on that on the next block of text.

Martial Arts Interrupt Actions uses two Sticks, which can come from the players current pool of Sticks, or up to two Sticks can be "borrowed" from the next Combat Round. With that limitation, any amount of Interrupt Actions can be used in a Combat Round.

One Edge can be spent to add two Sticks at any time during a Combat Round.

A couple of details:
defense pools don't refresh on your next action, it refreshes at the beginning of the next Combat Round
Interrupts have to use all of your current Sticks before you can borrow from the next Combat Round
Recoil only stack if multiple you take multiple shots in the same Phase. For example, someone with two Sticks can use one for a Simple Action to shoot a short burst on the first Phase, and then one more on the second or third Phase and the recoil wont stack. However if he uses both Sticks on the first Phase to fire twice, the recoil will stack. This makes sense?

[Redcrow]

I'm in favor of the 1 IP per person with augmentations giving appropriate bonuses to initiative order only and some Attributes or actions like Dodge, etc.

[Heath Robinson]

I made another update to include the new suggestions, including the suggestion Frank made on another board entirely.

[Banaticus]

Here's how it works. Everyone acts normally. Phys Adepts get 4 less points to spend than normal. Samurai have 20 less build points than normal. If they don't take these penalties, they get to sit out of combat for a round every three rounds, or every other round or maybe if they try to go with no penalty, they only get to act once every few rounds.

Mages have 2 less build points than normal (to buy the spell) because every mage has 6 spellcasting and 6 Magic and so will likely be able to get four successes on the spell with no problem (cast at force 4 to cap yourself at 4 successes, which is all you need to hit a threshold of 4. It'll have a drain of 4. But then mages always get the better end of the bargain.

[TommyTwoToes]

How about Everyones' gun suffers from Physics or Less flying lead makes Mr Melee happy.
All IP rules remain the same as RAW but guns are restricted to a set number of shots per combat turn. This is based on the number of rounds said weapon can fire in the hands of someone unaugmented (single shot=1, semi auto=2, full auto=10, hypervelocity=12), and ignores the RAW for number of bullets used for suppressive fire. This bullet allowance can be spread across the combat turn by fighters with multiple IPs, and each additional IP refreshes the recoil mods. Hence a 4IP sam with a hypervelocity minigun can fire a short burst, without stacking recoil penalties, in each of his phases, and can even throw in a take aim action for each one. Conversely Mr. Mundane can fire the same number of bullets, with a full-auto action, but cannot aim, and suffers a hefty recoil penalty. To balance magic, similarly only one spell may be cast per phase.

Pros:
buffs melee, if you choose to go that way
limits RAW rewrites
guns become great leveller for the unaugmented, especially the highly skilled

cons:
gimps guns to some extent
more book keeping

notes:
IPs more commonly used for defense in firefights
less flying lead can lead to longer combats.

I like this idea more than the others I read. I picture fights as more cinematic with this option. Out SS uses pistols, so she will likely stride through the fight with 1 in each hand (which would give her 4 shots total for the turn) and still have an IP left for melee or a Full Defense..... very movie like.

It keeps the +IP gear/effects valuable while stopping the nightmare of a SS with a SMG layign down 6 short bursts per combat turn.

[Nath]

My take,

"Take decision" becomes Complex Actions. Characters need to take one to stop what they were doing.

Two runners, One-trick Pony and Three-leaf, encounters a bunch of gangers/corporate security guards/Tamanous cyberzombies. One-trick Pony has 1 IP, Three-Leaf has 3.
Round 1/Pass 1 - Both Three-leaf and One-Trick Pony use a Taking Decision action to decide to draw their gun and fire at available targets.
Round 1/Pass 2 - Three-leaf draws his gun and fires at some unspecified target (to be chosen by the GM)
Round 1/Pass 3 - Three-leaf can either draw another gun, fire again (that is, any of the action he previously performed), go on Full Defense, or take a new "Take decision" action. He fires two more shots.
Round 2/Pass 1 - Three-leaf takes a new "Take decision" action and decides to shoot at the two opposing spellcasters until they're down. One-trick Pony draws his gun and shot at some unspecified target.
Round 2/Pass 2 - Three-leaf shots twice at the first spellslinger.
Round 2/Pass 3 - Three-leaf fires a third time at the first spellslinger, taking him down, and then fires at the second spellslinger.
Round 3/Pass 1 - One enemy gets to act first and hits hard, forcing Three-leaf to go on Full defense. One-trick Pony fires again at some unspecified target, the GM deciding that he shots at the remaining spellslinger, taking him down.
Round 3/Pass 2 - Three-leaf must take a new "Take decision" action as he can no longer perform the action he previously declared ("shot the two spellslinger until they're down").
And so on.

The system is equivalent to RAW as long as characters keep doing the same thing. It is obviously more costly for a character with one IP to change his mind, as he losts his entire Turn. But consider that with RAW, Three-leaf would be allowed to change his plans and adapt to a new situation for free at each IP, three times a Turn. If characters act like they're used to with RAW, most of the time they should lose one IP to take a decision for each IP they actually act in. It doesn't change the balance of power, but gives more tactical options. Unaugmented character should keep it simple, while augmented characters will be slightly less fast if they find an interest in spending some of their IP taking the right decision. On the other hand, a slow character that keeps on changing his mind becomes virtually useless, while an augmented character keeping it simple or making the efforts to plan his move three or four IP ahead retains his usual level of lethality.

This system main "failure" is that augmented people always get to act first (2nd edition style) as everyone should use its first IP on first turn to take a decision. GM can solve some of these issues by granting everyone one Take Decision action for free at the beginning of every turn, or a least at the beginning of a fight.

The rule makes ambushes really deadly, as the ambushers can take their Take Decision action before, while the ambushed still have to as the fight begin.

The GM may add "Taking Order" as a Free Action, making SWAT-style team a bit more deadly. Also, those should start the fight with declared actions like "get through the door and fire at any threat in the southwest corner of the room".


More in line with RAW, the GM may simply strictly enforces that "Observe in detail" is a Simple Action. And understanding a tactical situation that involves several allies and enemies sure require some observation.

[counterveil]

Sorry to necro a thread, but figured it would be better to necro and keep info in the same place rather than start a whole new thread.

I've been playtesting the following IP-modification with my group and it's worked fairly well:

We all get to go, but some of us go better than others!
- All Rounds consist of 4 Phases
- All Characters *can* act in any or all Phases
- IP gives you "markers" (we use stones, but anything works), so 3 IP gives you 3 markers / pips / whatever
- Markers refresh at the start of a new round
- If you want to act in a Phase, you have two options:

=> Give the GM a marker: Act normally
=> No marker: Any action that you initiate is subject to a -2 dice pool penalty (does not apply to defense, soak, reactive actions)

- IP-enhancing abilities are also given a movement bonus to compensate for "lower powered-ness"

== Pros ==
- Nobody really feels left out
- IP-enhancing abilities still feel pretty powerful when others are acting against you with -2 DP and you have your full Reaction for defense
- Movement is broken down into static blocks that don't need recalculation every time
- Core stats do not need to be changed except for giving IP-enhancing abilities a movement bonus

== Cons ==
- Loses the feel of the "super fast samurai" who gets to kill a whole bunch of things while other people are standing around (could be a Pro for you, depending on the type of game you play)
- A little more bookkeeping for the GM in small engagements, but not that much.
- A lot more bookkeeping for the GM in large engagements!

== Alternate Variations ==
- No markers. Your IP determines when you act without penalty and when you act with penalty

[pbangarth]

Interesting. It looks as if the issue of how movement is broken down across IPs (why does the 'fast' guy move 1/3 as far on IP 1 as the 'slow' guy?) is removed with this. I kind of like the multiple IP PC getting to look awesome, though.

Our gang at home has been using the inverted pyramid scheme described above to good effect for a while, now.

[Stahlseele]

Ever used the SR3 System?

[pbangarth]

I did when I played SR3. Remind me, was that the one with Initiative passes being divided by 10, or was that SR2?

[Yerameyahu]

That was 3. I liked the /10 rule.

[Stahlseele]

Ah . . doods . . NOT DIVIDED by ten . .
You roll your initiative dice.
Add up the eyes.
Add reaction to that.
You get to go as long as you have positive initiative left over.
And after each time you went, you substract 10 from that number.
Not divide by ten. Substract.
This means on a lucky roll, somebody with 9 reaction and 2 ini die can go 3 times, because he can get 12+9=21.
Wound-Modifiers directly substract from your number too. Immediately. So if you have a 11 and you get hurt and go down to 10, you don't go twice anymore, but only once.

[Yerameyahu]

Repeated subtraction is division. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TheOOB]

Personally, I actually like the system in the base book, I like that without magic or 'ware(or drugs) giving you extra speed in combat, you're basically useless(baring extreme circumstances like major ambushes, sniping, ect).

I think weakening the power of Initiative boosters makes combat more "fair", which kinda defeats the entire purpose of Shadowrun IMO.

Anyways, just my .02 nuyen.

[Warlordtheft]

In the datahaven#2 issue there is an alternative system that I'm actually going to use in the future. It is basically the standard raw system, but everyone gets 4IP, with the IPs converting to additional actions one can take beyond movement during their IP.

[Yerameyahu]

How is that different than normal? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Everyone can already move during all four IPs (in fact, must: your full Turn movement does all happen in one IP).

[Warlordtheft]

How is that different than normal? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Everyone can already move during all four IPs (in fact, must: your full Turn movement does all happen in one IP).

It changes in that everyone has a movement each IP, including those with one IP. Everyone has their movement split up amongst 3 IP, but can only act when they move. Basically there are 3 movement IP in a combat turn, for those four or five IP's they get to take extra action after the third IP and the second (if they have 5 IP).


Example:
Bob has 1 IP, and walks 1.5m during the first IP. He ay also use his actions as normal. If he does not use his action now he can wait until the 2nd IP or 3rd IP.

Joey has 2 IP, and can move in all three IP, but may only act in any two of the 3 IP.

Rory has 3 IP, and can move and act in all three IP.

Gonzo has 4 IP, Gonzo moves and acts in all 3 IP, He may also act (but not move) after the 3rd IP.

El Speedo has 5 IP, Gonzo moves and acts in all 3 IP, He may also act (but not move) after the 2nd IP, and also may act again after the third.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm saying, AFAIK everyone already gets movement during each IP, no matter how many they have. I guess some people interpret the rules differently, but that's the most consistent to me.

I do see the differences now that you point them out, though: 3 movement IPs, not 4; freer action delaying, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)