Technomancers, Drakes and AI, What I don't allow in my game. Options

[InfinityzeN]

My personal views on this...

Infected: No... just no. If people want to play vamps, I have run several very good V:tM campaigns in the past. I even have V:tR, though I haven't run it yet. One of the best characters in any of my games was from V:tM. He was a Malki named "Iron Heart" whos insanity was that he throught he was a Mortal Combat character. Sounds pretty funny right? At times it was... but mostly it was freaking scary crazy psycho shiz. Anyway, as I was saying, you want Vamps play a vamp game.

Drakes: Not that I dislike them, but as a PC they just don't really work. If you want to play something like this then I would suggest Fireborn. It does the job many many times better then trying to fit a Drake into a SR4 game. Now as NPCs that fit into the plot, they work well. I got an NPC with latent Drake and Adept. I'll be using him to draw the PCs into a little metaplot with Ghostdancer.

TMs: Ehhhh... I rather dislike some parts of their fluff, but as PCs they are perfectly acceptable and not overpowering (as long as I completely block their access to all that world breaking fluffy stuff, which as a GM I can do and still be RAW).

AI & Freespirits: I like having the rules, since it makes it easier for me as a GM to create them. However, they don't really appear to work well as a character.

[hermit]

They make an excellent getaway vehicle during rush hour.

But they have zero chance against any cop on a motorbike (or, for that matter, a speed-boosted segway).

GMs, don't let any character be a spotlight hog.

That would mean letting them off the hook and be special without much of the intended drawbacks. This won't happen with me, sorry. And since these flaws demand the character to be the thing the campaign revolves around (fairly little room for the PC to do anything if at everys opportinuty, agents of a Great will jump them) ... such charcters won't happen except for special campaigns built around that to begin with. And even there, I'd propably not give the character to someone who is in only because he wants to play something kewl, leet and suetiful, but a player I trust to be able to handle the character likely not making it through the campaign.

as long as I completely block their access to all that world breaking fluffy stuff, which as a GM I can do and still be RAW

What, except for GM fiat, will stop your initiated otaku from abusing the endless archive and great connection to hack anything anywhere anytime and get paydata which nets ginormours amounts of money, or is just the thing to blackmail anybody to do annything for them? Do you disallow resonance quests entirely for them? If so, good, but where is that still RAW?

[Mäx]

What, except for GM fiat, will stop your initiated otaku from abusing the endless archive and great connection to hack anything anywhere anytime and get paydata which nets ginormours amounts of money, or is just the thing to blackmail anybody to do annything for them? Do you disallow resonance quests entirely for them? If so, good, but where is that still RAW?

I think your reading all to much into resonance quests.
I don't see where the rules really allow doing thinks like that.

[GreyBrother]

The trope that the GM should fix what the game designers screw up is really starting to get on my nerves. Would an auto company that expects you to fix various parts of your car by yourself before being able to drive it get away with it? Would a software company get away if they told you you'd propably have to rewrite parts of the code so it doesn't work abysmally bad get away with that? No? So why game designers? What sets them apart in principle?

Nothing. But the GM wants to have some free hand to deliver HIS campaign. He actually builds a car and writes code, everything he gets from the Devs is Tools and Materials. You confused the part with the whole.

[InfinityzeN]

What, except for GM fiat, will stop your initiated otaku from abusing the endless archive and great connection to hack anything anywhere anytime and get paydata which nets ginormours amounts of money, or is just the thing to blackmail anybody to do annything for them? Do you disallow resonance quests entirely for them? If so, good, but where is that still RAW?

It is my choice as the GM on what paths he can find in the resonance, based on what is needed for the game. Trying to constantly go into the endless archive to rip and destroy stuff that does not contribute to the game and the rest of the players fun will be met with a simple "you can not find the path". If finding it is essentual to a session piece, then it is quiet easy to let him manage to find the path on this try, get in, and blow almost all of his time searching till he finds what he needs. After that, he has to hop out and hurry. If he trys to follow the same path again later for world breaking, he can't find it since it seems to have moved.

A resonance quest doesn't mean always going to the great connection or the endless archive. There are many paths. I would go so far as to state that most submerged TM have not been to ether (IMO).

[Wesley Street]

But they have zero chance against any cop on a motorbike (or, for that matter, a speed-boosted segway).

On a straightaway. But I'll take a quick quadruped that can jump obstacles going through alleyways and crowded markets over a crotch-rocket any day.

That would mean letting them off the hook and be special without much of the intended drawbacks. This won't happen with me, sorry. And since these flaws demand the character to be the thing the campaign revolves around (fairly little room for the PC to do anything if at everys opportinuty, agents of a Great will jump them) ... such charcters won't happen except for special campaigns built around that to begin with. And even there, I'd propably not give the character to someone who is in only because he wants to play something kewl, leet and suetiful, but a player I trust to be able to handle the character likely not making it through the campaign.

That's a lot of assumptions made about players and GMs that don't hold true for every group.

[Apathy]

On a straightaway. But I'll take a quick quadruped that can jump obstacles going through alleyways and crowded markets over a crotch-rocket any day.

Or make him a hi-initiate centaur horse shaman with the movement power, four kid stealth legs and cyberskates (laughs at the idea of a horse on skates).

EDIT: What would be sillier - centaur with cyberskates, or centaur with gecko pads so he could walk across the ceiling?

[InfinityzeN]

EDIT: What would be sillier - centaur with cyberskates, or centaur with gecko pads so he could walk across the ceiling?

The pads... no ifs ands buts or winnys about it.

[hermit]

On a straightaway. But I'll take a quick quadruped that can jump obstacles going through alleyways and crowded markets over a crotch-rocket any day.

You really overestimate the maneuverability of horses.

That's a lot of assumptions made about players and GMs that don't hold true for every group.

Well, this is an opinion thread, and that would be mine. Sure, other groups may handle that differently. This is how i would handle it and why.

[Ryu]

The pads... no ifs ands buts or winnys about it.

Because of the rider being duct-taped to the centaur´s back?

[Apathy]

Because of the rider being duct-taped to the centaur´s back?

The rider would need a gecko pad on his butt.

[Warlordtheft]

I think your reading all to much into resonance quests.
I don't see where the rules really allow doing thinks like that.

The resonance realms have their disadvantages too. If you are on a serious time constraint you will probably want to avoid it. It may seem like hours in the realm, but it may be weeks on the real time.
Also, finding the information is based on its availability. That call is by the GM. So yes it is possible-but the difficulty and timeliness are left to the GM who may make such quests near impossible unless it advances the adventure.

[hermit]

So, apart from GM fiat, there is nothing that can be done to keep a techno from finding out everything and hacking everything. Good to see we're in agreeance.

[Mäx]

So, apart from GM fiat, there is nothing that can be done to keep a techno from finding out everything and hacking everything. Good to see we're in agreeance.

Explain to me how you do those thinks by the rules and don't just point us into litlle fluff pieces.

[hermit]

Explain to me how you do those thinks by the rules and don't just point us into litlle fluff pieces.

What, you want a rundown for how to roll an average or challenging resonance quest?

[Mäx]

What, you want a rundown for how to roll an average or challenging resonance quest?

No i want to know where the rules say that a tm can do what you said in that quote. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
Becouse i think you reading all to much into those little fluff descriptions of the few resonance realms.

[Fuchs]

Those "fluff descriptions" are all under "Game Information".

[DamienKnight]

Drakes: WOW, really? Drakes? dragonkind are the most powerful beings in shadowrun, even the weakest should be far beyond any starting character. I think that by making them a playable race you are forced to remove the majority of their power in the name of balance, in my game even the weakest drake would be a 1000bp character because thats how bad ass they SHOULD be.

I know you have been beaten to death over the differences between Drakes and Dragons, so I will not add flames to the fire.

I would like to point out an excellent example of a Drake as a Character.

[ Spoiler ]

Ryan Mercury, who is a Physical Adept, revealed later in the series to actually be a Mystic Adept, and in fact a young Drake

Please checkout the DragonHeart Saga, which is a trilogy of official Shadowrun Novels first published in 1997 (back in 2nd edition times). It deals with Dunkelzhan's death and the team that was enlisted to fullfill certain aspects of his written will. The story has at least one Drake in it, who is powerful, but not beyond starting shadowrunner abilities.

http://www.jakkoke.com/work/novels/

[Mäx]

Those "fluff descriptions" are all under "Game Information".

So whats your point, their still fluff not rules.

[Wesley Street]

You really overestimate the maneuverability of horses.

I'm talking about centaurs.

[Synner667]

I know you have been beaten to death over the differences between Drakes and Dragons, so I will not add flames to the fire.

I would like to point out an excellent example of a Drake as a Character.

[ Spoiler ]

Ryan Mercury, who is a Physical Adept, revealed later in the series to actually be a Mystic Adept, and in fact a young Drake

Please checkout the DragonHeart Saga, which is a trilogy of official Shadowrun Novels first published in 1997 (back in 2nd edition times). It deals with Dunkelzhan's death and the team that was enlisted to fullfill certain aspects of his written will. The story has at least one Drake in it, who is powerful, but not beyond starting shadowrunner abilities.

http://www.jakkoke.com/work/novels/

And isn't actually a Drake for most of the books...
...And may not be beyond the starting shadowrunner abilities, but his training and experience would probably put him beyond "standard starting" characters...
...Unless tuition from a Dragon counts as "standard" with you ??

[hermit]

I'm talking about centaurs.

How are they more maneuverable than common horses?

The story has at least one Drake in it, who is powerful, but not beyond starting shadowrunner abilities.

Ryan Mercury was a prime runner with the very start of the novel. Where that would make him comparable to a startup SR character is beyond me. Also, please don't leave out he had Dunkelzahn's might backing him - he was no lone drake, he was a draconic agent, and that alone gives a character access to ressources vastly beyond even those of high-karma characters.

He started out initiated - being able to mask his true nature. He had at least 4 levels of giant leap, boosted reflexes 3, maximised combat sense and several maximised skills. No way this was a starting character. Also, his buying the mystical adept feat after chargen puts him well outside rules legality to boot. While the novels were somewhat fun, he sure isn't a good example of an easily integratable drake character. In fact, he is the opposite.

[Jhaiisiin]

He could have always had the Mystic Adept ability, but never spent points towards spellcasting until much later...

[Fuchs]

First time I heard Ryan is called an "excellent example".

[Demonseed Elite]

First time I heard Ryan is called an "excellent example".

First time I've heard "Ryan Mercury" and "excellent" in the same sentence!