Wreck spells, ... would you allow ... Options

[Dashifen]

Would you allow a Wreck Wall spell? Part of me wants to be picky about it and say you'd need individual Wreck spells to target the various components of a wall, but the other part says that if Wreck Vehicle should work, then Wreck Wall should as well. The idea was brought to me by a player wanting to make a limited target Powerbolt for "emergency door creation" (her words, not mine), and I think Wreck fits the bill, but I thought I'd share with you all for opinions on the matter.

[Zormal]

I would allow it. It's only logical that you can limit magic by function, not just by material.

[ornot]

heh. A human breaching charge.

I think I'd allow it though, provided the PC provides an adequately entertaining visual descriptor.

Also, depending on the building, and where she uses it, she might just bring the house down!

[Stahlseele]

heck, an extremely built adept can do that too ^^

[masterofm]

The two Wreck spells I thought of was Wreck - wall and Wreck - armor quite a while ago. I was denied on Wreck - wall because that means you can blow holes in almost anything as long as you beat the OR. The wall of a vehicle? The wall of a building? The possibilities were somewhat cheap considering what you could do with something like that. A mage we have in our group right now has Wreck - gun. It is so extremely vicious. It also means that protection like lets say a really really really well processed military grade awesomeness blast door has a OR of 5 tops even if it has a barrier rating of crazy insane, and an armor value probably double that the door is toast if the mage casts a force 5 spell at it. = /

[Zormal]

yes... wreck building wall might be better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Starmage21]

yes... wreck building wall might be better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thats definitely IMPLIED, but then Wreck Gun would probobly break other kinds of guns as well, not just firearms.

[ornot]

"Wreck vehicle wall" is far too much of a stretch to me. I'd be more accepting of "wreck tyre sidewall" (although I still wouldn't allow it) since that actually has the term wall in its name, but who calls any part of a car chassis a wall?

Anyway, I don't have my book on me, but doesn't wreck work in the same way as powerbolt, only target limited? In which case you wouldn't automatically blow through a hardened wall, since you'd only do force+hits-threshold damage, which might not be enough to make a very large hole.

[Hagga]

The two Wreck spells I thought of was Wreck - wall and Wreck - armor quite a while ago. I was denied on Wreck - wall because that means you can blow holes in almost anything as long as you beat the OR. The wall of a vehicle? The wall of a building? The possibilities were somewhat cheap considering what you could do with something like that. A mage we have in our group right now has Wreck - gun. It is so extremely vicious. It also means that protection like lets say a really really really well processed military grade awesomeness blast door has a OR of 5 tops even if it has a barrier rating of crazy insane, and an armor value probably double that the door is toast if the mage casts a force 5 spell at it. = /

Then why not OR + BR, or OR+(BR/2)? Or just plain BR, or BR/2?

[kzt]

Anyway, I don't have my book on me, but doesn't wreck work in the same way as powerbolt, only target limited? In which case you wouldn't automatically blow through a hardened wall, since you'd only do force+hits-threshold damage, which might not be enough to make a very large hole.

I had this argument on dumpshock a while ago and someone pointed out the actual game rules say that to punch a hole in a barrier you have to match or exceed the structure rating. So a force 8 powerbolt rolling 8 hits against a reinforced concrete wall does NOTHING, as the OR of 2 or 3 means the total DV is less than 15.

This didn't logically seem make sense at initial examination, but logic and SR don't go together and it explains why force 1 ganger mages don't blow up skyscrapers.

[ornot]

I had this argument on dumpshock a while ago and someone pointed out the actual game rules say that to punch a hole in a barrier you have to match or exceed the structure rating. So a force 8 powerbolt rolling 8 hits against a reinforced concrete wall does NOTHING, as the OR of 2 or 3 means the total DV is less than 15.

This didn't logically seem make sense at initial examination, but logic and SR don't go together and it explains why force 1 ganger mages don't blow up skyscrapers.

Seems pretty logical to me. You need to be damned good to inflict more damage than some high rated explosives planted by a demo specialist. That force 8, 8 hit wreck wall spell will blow through less substantial obstacles like they were rice paper.

As I recall though, just because you've not made a hole, doesn't mean you've not damaged the structure, and repeated castings will stack. I'm pretty sure that the example given in the book of the street sam blowing holes in a door takes him a couple of rounds.

[masterofm]

kzt I thought that was dealing with combat spells. Combat spells are absorbed, but I thought other spells use the OR rating of the object as a bypass to exploding stuff. If the structural rating is its OR (which means all drones are made out of bullet proof glass or wood...) then it would be a pass fail kind of spell (a crappy pass fail kind of spell.)

However if this is the case then I hate that as a rule. If that is the case then the "wall" of a ship or an APC is more powerful then the vehicle itself when slinging spells at it, and that just hurts my brain so much that it makes me want to play a game with a simpler spell system.... like Earthdawn....

[Aaron]

Arguably, spells are cast at things as a whole. I believe, for example, that you can't make a called shot with a Direct Combat spell, you have to cast it on the target as a whole. By the same token, you couldn't make a spell that damaged only arms or spleens.

It seems to me that a wall is just a part of a building, ne? And Wreck is a Direct Combat spell, right? I'm away from my materials at the moment, so I'm not certain.

Pehaps an Indirect Combat spell with a Blast effect would be at least as good, if not better.

[Dunsany]

I had this argument on dumpshock a while ago and someone pointed out the actual game rules say that to punch a hole in a barrier you have to match or exceed the structure rating. So a force 8 powerbolt rolling 8 hits against a reinforced concrete wall does NOTHING, as the OR of 2 or 3 means the total DV is less than 15.

This didn't logically seem make sense at initial examination, but logic and SR don't go together and it explains why force 1 ganger mages don't blow up skyscrapers.

This isn't exactly accurate.

Structure Rating
The Structure rating is the number of “damage boxes� required to destroy a section 1 meter square and about 10 cm thick (approximately the typical wall thickness for a residential or office building).

The spell Wreck works like any Direct Combat spell again non-living targets:

Direct Combat spells cast against nonliving objects are treated as Success Tests; the caster must achieve enough hits to beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174). Net hits increase damage as normal (the object does not get a resistance test).

So, for your example: a Force 8 Powerbolt (or Wreck-Wall) with 8 hits against a reinforced concrete wall (Structure 15.) We'll set the OR to 3 for the purposes of this example. You have done 13 points of damage to the structure (16-3) and have almost opened a "1 meter square and about 10cm thick" piece of a reinforced concrete wall. It now has 2 "damage boxes" left and a much weaker spell will be able to finish it's destruction.

The rules do not say that you need to match or exceed the structure rating to destroy an object (or part of an object). I believe the text that has confused people is the following:

If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails.

This is specific to "shooting through a barrier" and not to destroying an object.

[kzt]

If that is the case then the "wall" of a ship or an APC is more powerful then the vehicle itself when slinging spells at it, and that just hurts my brain so much that it makes me want to play a game with a simpler spell system.... like Earthdawn....

Heh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) It's SR, after all.

But the person (I have no idea who anymore) who pointed this out to me when I was whining about how a force 3 gang mage could destroy most of a city's downtown in an afternoon. He was right, the rule prevent it. I'd argue that it's reasonable to make things like APCs a lot tougher against magic than they are shown. But it's your game.

[BookWyrm]

Does the "wreck" part of the spell do spectacular effects, or does it just cause the target to collapse?

Example: the aforementioned "Wreck Wall" is cast on a wall in a dead-end, by a mage who is trying to make a fast getaway.

Effect One: The wall literally explodes as if an explosive charge was detonated within it, splaying mortar, dust, plascrete & chunks of masonry in all directions (even back toward the caster). The noise alerts his persuers, not to mention the Lone Star patrol at the end of the block on the other side.

Effect Two: The wall simply collapses, as if it just gives up being a wall & falls apart into a semi-scattered pile of bricks & cement. Some masonry dust billows mostly upward, only a little gets spread out. The noise of the collapse isn't as loud as the explosion, but the Mage has to spend a few extra seconds making it over the pile of rubble. Other than patting off the masonry dust from his clothes, the mage makes a somewhat smooth escape.

[The Jake]

Would you allow a Wreck Wall spell? Part of me wants to be picky about it and say you'd need individual Wreck spells to target the various components of a wall, but the other part says that if Wreck Vehicle should work, then Wreck Wall should as well. The idea was brought to me by a player wanting to make a limited target Powerbolt for "emergency door creation" (her words, not mine), and I think Wreck fits the bill, but I thought I'd share with you all for opinions on the matter.

In ye old days, such a spell existed and it was called Urban Renewal. This goes back to at least SR2, if not SR1 going from memory and that's all it was - a Wreck Wall spell.

- J.

[masterofm]

or "rocket launcher"

[Dunsany]

It occurred to me that I should actually answer the question posed by the OP if I was going to hop into a thread and make a few comments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd be more than fine with a Wreck-Wall spell. They can already do the same thing with a Powerball/bolt spell, or a Shatter for that matter. This gives them reduced drain at the cost of limiting their target to something specific (certainly *far* more specific than "anything") and requires that they learn a whole new spell for it.

As for how it looks, keep in mind that the destruction is going to be on the order of a meter square hole in the object. A meter is a pretty big hole, but it's not the explosion of an entire wall of a building. I'd probably end up with it being somewhere in the middle of BookWyrm's examples. I'd err on the side of a physical direct combat spell being not so subtle so I'd say it makes a good bit of noise, but *might* not alert everyone in the streets nearby.

[kzt]

A cubic meter would destroy most structural columns for large buildings. So after the force 3 gang mage casts the spell the 3rd time the 40 story office building collapses. Not bad for 9 seconds of work.

[WeaverMount]

Does the "wreck" part of the spell do spectacular effects...?

Nope it doesn't. I really don't see the point of the wreck (LOS) spells. It's power bolt with one less drain. I think you'd be better off buying power bolt with fetish even less drain and no restrictions.

Now the Demolish (LOSa) spells, those are another kettle'o'fish. In that case the restriction on what the spell targets actually lets you be selective with your AoE. Using magic like this, archiving effects only possible with magic, is where it really shines. Demolish gun let's you instantly neutralize most gangs, with way less fallout than slaughter them all. You might be able to use similar effects with a meta-type selector, and drop AoE on you and your team.

[AllTheNothing]

Does the "wreck" part of the spell do spectacular effects, or does it just cause the target to collapse?

Example: the aforementioned "Wreck Wall" is cast on a wall in a dead-end, by a mage who is trying to make a fast getaway.

Effect One: The wall literally explodes as if an explosive charge was detonated within it, splaying mortar, dust, plascrete & chunks of masonry in all directions (even back toward the caster). The noise alerts his persuers, not to mention the Lone Star patrol at the end of the block on the other side.

Effect Two: The wall simply collapses, as if it just gives up being a wall & falls apart into a semi-scattered pile of bricks & cement. Some masonry dust billows mostly upward, only a little gets spread out. The noise of the collapse isn't as loud as the explosion, but the Mage has to spend a few extra seconds making it over the pile of rubble. Other than patting off the masonry dust from his clothes, the mage makes a somewhat smooth escape.

Effect two.
The spell weakens the binding forces of the wall creating microfractures within its tructure, when the structure rating reaches zero it simply falls apart. An explosion would be a blast elemental indirect spell (being described as similar to the shockwave of an explosion a blast spell MIGHT be considered as explosive for porpouse of attacking barriers, doubling the damage against barriers).
At least it's my opinion.

[AllTheNothing]

Thats definitely IMPLIED, but then Wreck Gun would probobly break other kinds of guns as well, not just firearms.

A name is just a name, when the spell formula was developed the creator meant to affect firearms so it will affect firearms, you could call it "to cause male trolls to want to have sex Lone Star cops" but the effect is set in stone by the formula and would keep affecting firearms.

[AllTheNothing]

One of the wrost Demolish spells?

Demolish Elettronics
Comlink, smartweapons, cyaberware (not dermal plating/sheating, bone lacing or similar) and nanocybernetics, hard nanites, vehicles, drones, etc. without harming the livings (unless the living was kept alive by those elettronics) or risking to cause excessive structural damage.

Demolish Weapons
Self explainatory.

Demolish Wearware
Armor and clothes, a good way to piss off people.

Some of the best Slaughter spells?

Slaughter FAB
Resisted with Force each point of damage not resisted reduces the force by 1, if reduced to 0 the FAB is destroied.

Slaughter Infected
Manaball affectes only HMHVV positives.

Slaughter Insect Spirits
Chigago's wet dream.

Sloughter GloMoss
Resisted with Force each point of damage not resisted reduces the force by 1, if reduced to 0 the GloMoss is destroied. To get rid of mage cuffs (you must resist one dischare though).

Slaughter Rats
For devil rats infestations; Clone a devil rat creating about 100'000 clones of which you have a ritual link, let them loose in various part of the city (the one in which devil rats are most numerous) in "packs" of 1'000 units each, wait a day and use ritual sorcery, you have 100'000 Manaballs that affect only rats; send drones to clean the corpes.

[MaxMahem]

Why not? Wreck Wall is just powerbolt with less drain that is limited to a certain class of targets.

The only thing I would be careful about is to not allow the term 'wall' to be abused and be used willy nilly. Limit it to, you know, walls, like in buildings or around compounds. Don't let the player say "I'm going to target the vehicles door, thats like a wall right?" or, "I'm going to target his chest, thats like a wall for his body right?." It's magic so feel free to put arbitrary restrictions on what he can target with it.