Can't Figure Out Rigging and Remote Control, Please answer what you can. Options

[Graushwein]

So commanding them to move to specific tactical spots is one simple action. I get that.

In order for me to use the command skill to fire one of my drone's weapon's would I need to hold my actions to wait till they got into a position to fire?

It says that firing a vehicle/drone weapon is a complex action. Does this mean that I cannot command shoot a long burst and short burst as two simple actions?

Also it says that drones can go on their own initiative, pilot + response, if in autonomous mode. So I command them to move then they move on their initiative, right?
Now what if I want to fire a weapon from a drone but the drone has a higher initiative than me?

If I am going to remote control a drone just a little does it go on my initiative? Do I have to decide this at the beginning of the combat round?


I'll do a mock combat to help. I assume that drones are constantly waiting for me to give a command so in the first turn of combat they would go on my initiative after I give the command?
Initiative Pass 1 (I have 3 IP)
A1. I spend a simple action to command and they move into firing positions. They move on my initiative because they were holding action for a command to be given. During my initiative pass they move to the designated positions. Now can they fire a long and short burst right then or is there more to it? Anyways they fire I think.

A2. I want to use remote control to fire one of the drone's weapons, but I guess I can't because that takes a complex action?


Initiative Pass 2
B1. This pass I want to use gunnery to fire the weapon of a drone. Can I fire the weapon in addition to the drone firing the weapon this pass?

B2. I want to fire the weapon of a drone. I guess I use a complex action. But I am not sure whether that lets me fire a long and short burst, or just one burst?

3. The rest of the drones act autonomously and fire thier weapons.


Initiative Pass 3
C1. I get a 9 and they get a 12 to act. They act and likely fire because they go first. But then it gets to my turn and I issue a new command for them to move and engage different targets. I think they don't follow my action until thier action comes back around.

C2. They move and shoot, but I also want to shoot a weapon remotely. Does that mean that one drone loses it's action so that I can fire, or can we do both. Does the drone need to hold fire until my pass so that I can fire?


There is probly more questions, but I'm trying to understand. I really am. I don't want to be a pest but it doesn't seem clear to me.

Thanks,
Graushwein

[Ryu]

The three basic methods to make a drone kill stuff are:
- Jump-In
- Remote-Control via Command
- Giving Orders to the Autopilot

Jump-In / Remote-Control
In both cases you pilot the drone. One feels like being in the drone body, the other is like a high-end shooter running on your PC. Mechanical differences are in the dicepool calculation, applicable augmentation (not much for RC), and the inability of RC to be used as interrupt action.
The drone has a movement rate, and you can use both RC and Jumping in to move and then shoot, as you would with your own body.

Drone Combat
Firing a vehicle weapon is a complex action. You can split the FA salvo, but not use a simple action for a salvo.
The drone pilot can (and will) act until you take over via RC/Jumping-in. You are in RC of the drone until you use your IP to do something else.
There is no way of "just a little" RC. Either you control the drone, or the autopilot does.



Example:
I'll do a mock combat to help. I assume that drones are constantly waiting for me to give a command so in the first turn of combat they would go on my initiative after I give the command?
-> You send the order on your initiative, the drones have their own initiative, and execute them on their initiative. Your solution is correct if the drones sit idle, and are constantly holding actions to receive your orders.

Initiative Pass 1 (I have 3 IP)
A1. I spend a simple action to command and they move into firing positions. They move on my initiative because they were holding action for a command to be given. During my initiative pass they move to the designated positions. Now can they fire a long and short burst right then or is there more to it? Anyways they fire I think.
-> Yes, they move, and use their complex action to fire.

A2. I want to use remote control to fire one of the drone's weapons, but I guess I can't because that takes a complex action?
-> Since you already spend a simple action, you can´t.


Initiative Pass 2
B1. This pass I want to use gunnery to fire the weapon of a drone. Can I fire the weapon in addition to the drone firing the weapon this pass?
-> Technically yes. I say: You point the gun, or the pilot points the gun.

B2. I want to fire the weapon of a drone. I guess I use a complex action. But I am not sure whether that lets me fire a long and short burst, or just one burst?
-> Everything up to FA, and FA bursts can be split against multiple targets.

3. The rest of the drones act autonomously and fire thier weapons.


Initiative Pass 3
C1. I get a 9 and they get a 12 to act. They act and likely fire because they go first. But then it gets to my turn and I issue a new command for them to move and engage different targets. I think they don't follow my action until thier action comes back around.
-> Yes.

C2. They move and shoot, but I also want to shoot a weapon remotely. Does that mean that one drone loses it's action so that I can fire, or can we do both. Does the drone need to hold fire until my pass so that I can fire?
-> Technically, no. I would expect you to declare how each drone is controlled per IP, but it is not in the rules AFAIK.

[Graushwein]

Oh thanks. I'm starting to get it.

On another note can drones fire their weapons normally or is it a complex action for them to fire the weapons as well?

[Graushwein]

Ooh, I found a gem on page 162 of the core book.

GUNNERY
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons.
The action required for shooting weapons depends on the
mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases
vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire. Th e Gunnery
skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

So that means that it is only a complex action if the gun requires it! Sweet! So that means tha my 3 drones could act and fire with their own skills then I could fire one of thier guns one more time. So if I had 3 drones that would be 3 drone shots plus one more for me remote controlling. They have autoguns.

[Matsci]

Ooh, I found a gem on page 162 of the core book.

GUNNERY
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons.
The action required for shooting weapons depends on the
mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases
vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire. Th e Gunnery
skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

So that means that it is only a complex action if the gun requires it! Sweet! So that means tha my 3 drones could act and fire with their own skills then I could fire one of thier guns one more time. So if I had 3 drones that would be 3 drone shots plus one more for me remote controlling. They have autoguns.

Yeah, my rigger keeps forgetting that.

[kzt]

So that means that it is only a complex action if the gun requires it! Sweet! So that means tha my 3 drones could act and fire with their own skills then I could fire one of thier guns one more time. So if I had 3 drones that would be 3 drone shots plus one more for me remote controlling. They have autoguns.

Huh?

"Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft (see p. 239) ratings for all necessary tests, and act on their own Initiative (see p. 239)."



"Riggers may also take a Complex Action and “jump into� a drone via full-VR. In this case, the rigger essentially “becomes�
the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. A rigger who has jumped into a drone can
still issue commands to other subscribed drones.

A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made using the rigger’s own skill and attributes."

[Ringo]

This is how I see the above question about rate of fire for the drone. I'm trying to learn the rules as well, so if someone could verify this please do.

There are 3 ways for a drone to operate:
1. "Jumped In", where the rigger acts through the drone and the drone has no independent actions.
2. "Autonomous", where the drone acts as previously commanded and the rigger's actions are independent of the drone.
3. "Remote Controlled", whereby the drone acts semi-independently with the rigger's commands.
Is this correct?

So, I'm a rigger, I have a single drone (with a single weapon) which is subscribed to my commlink (which is modified for hot sim VR) and I want my single drone to fire as many times in a Combat Turn as possible. So I could only fire a maximum of three times per Turn because:
1. In the "Jumped In" scenario, I'm in hot sim full VR which gives me 3 Initiative Passes per Turn. I can only fire the drone's weapon 3 times. Because to fire a mounted/vehicle weapon it requires a complex action. The weapon would fire on my Initiative score. I'd use it's Sensor rating and my Gunnery skill rating. I would not be able to perform any other actions and the drone would not get any independent actions.
2. In the "Autonomous" scenario, I've previously commanded the drone to fire continously until further commands are given. The drone can fire it's weapon a total of 3 times per Turn. Because, to fire a mounted/vehicle weapon it requires a complex action. The weapon would fire on the drone's Initiative score, using it's own Pilot rating and Targeting autosoft rating and I could use my actions for other things.
3. In the "Remote Controlled" scenario, we're acting "symbiotically". I'd still only be able to fire the weapon 3 times (I'm in hot sim full VR still). Because, each I.P. I would have to issue the fire command as a simple action on my pass then the drone would fire the weapon as a complex action on it's pass, on my Initiative score and using my Command program rating and my Gunnery skill. And, I would still have a simple action left for each I.P.

Is this correct?

[kzt]

Technically SR only offer two modes; what you call the autonomous (aka "captains chair") mode or the jumped in (aka VR). There are two variations on autonomous, subscribed, when you can continually feed it instructions, and unsubscribed when you can't and it's relying on the pilot (and the GM's interpretation of how the drone would follow your orders).

Only in full VR can you use your skills to shoot the drone's guns.

It's unclear to me exactly how many passes you get in VR rigging. It seems to suggest up to 3 (limited by the riggers VR IPs or the drone's 3, whichever are less), but I can't really tell if this is correct. Sadly, this part of the computer rules is clearer and less confusing than most of the rest.

[Cain]

It's unclear to me exactly how many passes you get in VR rigging. It seems to suggest up to 3 (limited by the riggers VR IPs or the drone's 3, whichever are less), but I can't really tell if this is correct. Sadly, this part of the computer rules is clearer and less confusing than most of the rest.

While you're right about the order modes, you're somewhat wrong on this count. The rigger gets his full Matrix Initiative + IP's, which can go up to 5. If he's jumped into a drone, then it gets all 5. Otherwise, what happens is that in VR-Rigging, you get to issue up to 5 commands to your drones, either individually or as a group. The drones then act on those orders, using their actions to do so.

Now, my question is what happens if you use an agent script so that you can use one command to execute a complicated maneuver. For example, you give the order: "Execute Maneuver Delta-6", which tells your Dobermans to flank their target, the dragonflies move out of the way and engage any opposition drones, and the Stormcloud gains altitude and starts feeding indirect targeting information to your C&C van, which is equipped with a mortar.

On the one hand, this seems perfectly legit, and is precisely what you'd want out of a drone force. On the other hand, this seems like an abuse of the "issuing commands" rules. What do you all think?

[Ryu]

Ooh, I found a gem on page 162 of the core book.

GUNNERY
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons.
The action required for shooting weapons depends on the
mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases
vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire. Th e Gunnery
skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

So that means that it is only a complex action if the gun requires it! Sweet! So that means tha my 3 drones could act and fire with their own skills then I could fire one of thier guns one more time. So if I had 3 drones that would be 3 drone shots plus one more for me remote controlling. They have autoguns.

The above quote is for manual gunnery (or more precisely, it´s for general Gunnery, but drone gunnery gets specific rules). Firing a drone weapon system does indeed take a complex action, as does Control Device (main book pg. 219, 239).

[kzt]

While you're right about the order modes, you're somewhat wrong on this count. The rigger gets his full Matrix Initiative + IP's, which can go up to 5. If he's jumped into a drone, then it gets all 5. Otherwise, what happens is that in VR-Rigging, you get to issue up to 5 commands to your drones, either individually or as a group. The drones then act on those orders, using their actions to do so.

I thought that too, but that isn't supported by the note below about how they are hampered by the physical body and it never says anywhere that a jumped in rigger acts with his VR IPs. They might mean this, but they don't actually say it. Like the rest of the computer rules it talks around critical points without ever saying what they mean. (Reminds me a boss at 'The Phone Company', who "managed by clue", never saying what he wanted you to actually do. This way he would take credit if you did something good but could always deny that he told you to do it if you crashed and burned.)

Drone Initiative
Like other programs, the Pilot dronebrain acts at fast digital speeds. Drones are hampered, however, by their physical shells, and so act slightly slower. Drone Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total).

A drone directly controlled by a jumped-in rigger, however, acts on the rigger’s Initiative. If a rigger jumps into or out of a drone, both continue to act with the same Initiative Score.

[KurenaiYami]

Drone Initiative
Like other programs, the Pilot dronebrain acts at fast digital speeds. Drones are hampered, however, by their physical shells, and so act slightly slower. Drone Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total).

A drone directly controlled by a jumped-in rigger, however, acts on the rigger�€™s Initiative. If a rigger jumps into or out of a drone, both continue to act with the same Initiative Score.

I would argue that the section you highlighted (and I quoted) is referring solely to Initiative, not Initiative Passes. When they say it's being hampered by its physical shell, they're referring to the limitations of the Drone's Response and the effect it has on its initiative.

Initiative Passes are basically left absent, and I always just assumed that drones acting alone had one (as that is the number normal, unaugmented combatants have) and that one that is being rigged would have a number of passes equal to the rigger.

[kzt]

I would argue that the section you highlighted (and I quoted) is referring solely to Initiative, not Initiative Passes. When they say it's being hampered by its physical shell, they're referring to the limitations of the Drone's Response and the effect it has on its initiative.

Initiative Passes are basically left absent, and I always just assumed that drones acting alone had one (as that is the number normal, unaugmented combatants have) and that one that is being rigged would have a number of passes equal to the rigger.

??? That section I included directly addresses IPs...

"and they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total)."

[Graushwein]

Huh?

"Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft (see p. 239) ratings for all necessary tests, and act on their own Initiative (see p. 239)."



"Riggers may also take a Complex Action and “jump into� a drone via full-VR. In this case, the rigger essentially “becomes�
the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. A rigger who has jumped into a drone can
still issue commands to other subscribed drones.

A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made using the rigger’s own skill and attributes."

I don't debate this. What I'm talking about is the third option, remote controlled. I don't have the book with me. I will in a few minutes. But it says that when remotely controlling a drone you command it like your playing a first person shooter game (In todays time).

The rules are pretty complete, except for the remote control option.

[Ryu]

Hmm. If you´ve gotten that from my post in that other thread, it was a description I used, and no citation from RAW.

Control Device is a complex matrix action. It uses the appropiate initiative/IPs for matrix actions, and is always a complex action. This, besides the VCR bonus, is the balancing factor compared to Jumping-In.

Rigging is a matrix activity (requires VR), and the segment on Drone Initiative is clearly structured into one part on autonomous drones, and one on rigged drones. You have to disregard both paragraph and sentence structure to arrive at riggers receiving exactly 3 IPs even in cold VR.

[Graushwein]

Hmm. If you´ve gotten that from my post in that other thread, it was a description I used, and no citation from RAW.

Control Device is a complex matrix action. It uses the appropiate initiative/IPs for matrix actions, and is always a complex action. This, besides the VCR bonus, is the balancing factor compared to Jumping-In.

Rigging is a matrix activity (requires VR), and the segment on Drone Initiative is clearly structured into one part on autonomous drones, and one on rigged drones. You have to disregard both paragraph and sentence structure to arrive at riggers receiving exactly 3 IPs even in cold VR.

That wasn't your quote. It was Kzt's.

Drones recieve 3 IP's all the time. Riggers recieve recieve whatever they get from the VR mode they are in. Normally 2 cold and 3 hot.

If you are talking about this quote on p.239 then I disagree.

Drone Initiative

Like other programs, the Pilot dronebrain
acts at fast digital speeds. Drones are hampered, however,
by their physical shells, and so act slightly slower. Drone
Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two
extra Initiative Passes (three total).
A drone directly controlled by a jumped-in rigger, however,
acts on the rigger’s Initiative. If a rigger jumps into or out
of a drone, both continue to act with the same Initiative Score.

Those are completely different paragraphs and represent two different ways of controlling drones.

Then as far as being a complex action the book seems to always assume that you are using an FA only weapon. In this passage, p.239, it does say complex action.

Fire a Weapon System (Complex)

A rigger may fi re an armed weapon on
any single drone (see Gunnery and Sensor
Targeting, p. 162.) If the rigger is directly
controlling the drone, he cannot perform
this action with other drones.

But it also tells you to go to p.162 for more detailed directions, meaning the p.162 directions supercede what is given above. Here is the p.162 text.

GUNNERY

The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons.
The action required for shooting weapons depends on the
mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases
vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire. The Gunnery
skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

For some reason they always assume your going to use an LMG or higher but you don't have to do this, so it says that if the weapon doesn't require a complex action then you use the gun's normal actions.

The book is incredibly vague and contradictory when it comes to drones and it is very frustrating. Especially when it comes to drones that are remotely controlled.

[Ryu]

If you are talking about this quote on p.239 then I disagree.

Those are completely different paragraphs and represent two different ways of controlling drones.

So you agree.


Except for this:

The book is incredibly vague and contradictory when it comes to drones and it is very frustrating. Especially when it comes to drones that are remotely controlled.

Control Device is a Complex Action, Fire Weapon System is a complex action. Using Gunnery doesn´t have to be a complex action, but usually is.
The angle of "depends on the firing mode" is superceded by the action you need to fire the weapon in the first place, but could be if you used manual controls. I find that to be clear from a rules perspective. A gunner doesn´t also have to drive the vehicle, so the difference in actions can be explained.

[Malachi]

When operating drones via Remote Control, they always act on the Rigger's Initiative, where they wait for further orders. When operating via Remote Control, think of drones as an RC Car with the Rigger at the controls. I don't even bother to roll Initiative for the Drones themselves when controlling via RC "commands" because they'll always wait for the Rigger anyway. If, later, the Rigger switches them to autonomous then have them continue to act on the Rigger's Initiative Score for the rest of the Combat Turn, then roll up a new Init Score for them next Round.

The chart in Unwired pg. 105 really cleared things up for me. Remote Control mode is very similar to "Jumped-In" mode except that the Dice Pools that are used are different. In Remote Control mode, the Command program is substituted for almost all of the "attribute" portions of the dice pool. You can definitely have a Rigger who "sub-specializes" in one of the three "modes" to control drones.

As far as the shooting stuff goes: I always have the Rigger use a Complex Action to issue a command (in RC mode) for the drone to fire its weapon. The firing can be in any mode allowed by the weapon, but it always uses a Complex Action. Eg. if its a SA weapon on the drone, I let him fire 2 shots with the Command, I even have him roll twice. However, even if he wanted to fire just once, or it was a SS weapon, it still takes a Complex action.

Now on switching drone modes. If a drone had previously been issued orders and was acting autonomously, before the Rigger, but then the Rigger wanted to switch it over to Remote Control mode, I don't let him do it that IP. The Rigger uses a Free Action to "switch" the drone's mode, but he cannot issue any more orders to the drone that has already acted that pass. He must wait until his (the Rigger's) action next Pass, at which point the drone will be waiting for orders since its control mode had been "switched" on the previous pass.

[Graushwein]

Malachi I agree with your post entirely.

[Aaron]

Don't forget that controlling a drone remotely is a Complex Action, so taking a shot with (say) a semi-automatic weapon would be one shot for a Complex Action on the part of the controller.

[Graushwein]

Don't forget that controlling a drone remotely is a Complex Action, so taking a shot with (say) a semi-automatic weapon would be one shot for a Complex Action on the part of the controller.

I partly agree except for this quote on page 162.

GUNNERY
The rules for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons.
The action required for shooting weapons depends on the
mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases
vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire. The Gunnery
skill is used for vehicle-mounted weapons.

So either that means that it is a complex action AND a simple action to fire, which is imposible. Or it is a minimum complex action where you can choose to fire one or two simple actions if the gun allows it. Drones are treated as vehicles and on page 239 tells you to refer to page 162 for more details on firing drone weapons.

Unless there is an "Official" answer I'm afraid there isn't much chance for a concensus from where I stand. We each seem to read the evidence in different ways. I wish the book would have given writen examples in the italicized text like it does for many other things, when it comes to remote controlled drones.

[Ryu]

Manual Gunnery - Used action depends on the firing mode. Since vehicle weapons tend to be heavy (full recoil compensation and weight tolerance), this will usually be a complex action (Full Auto mode).
Firing a drone weapon system - complex action, special rule takes priority
Control device (to fire weapon) - complex action, special rule takes priority

That is the way to read the RAW that is free of contradictions. I´m absolutely fine with optional rules and houserules, but they should be out in the open and agreed upon.

[Graushwein]

Manual Gunnery - Used action depends on the firing mode. Since vehicle weapons tend to be heavy (full recoil compensation and weight tolerance), this will usually be a complex action (Full Auto mode).
Firing a drone weapon system - complex action, special rule takes priority
Control device (to fire weapon) - complex action, special rule takes priority

That is the way to read the RAW that is free of contradictions. I´m absolutely fine with optional rules and houserules, but they should be out in the open and agreed upon.

So let me ask you this then. In your opinion when a drone is acting autonomously with something like an assault rifle. Do they require a complex action to fire the weapon and therefore can't do two simple actions?

[Ryu]

Yes. Because firing a vehicle weapon system takes a complex action, and there is no rule for splitting that complex action into two simple actions. You can split FA bursts against multiple targets, as always. But you can´t fire the weapon system twice.

Easy to houserule, but if your group does so, consider sniper rifles as main armament for your drones.

[kzt]

The book is incredibly vague and contradictory when it comes to drones and it is very frustrating. Especially when it comes to drones that are remotely controlled.

I'd argue that the drone rules are among the clearest and best written parts of the computer rules. Not that I'm disagreeing with you.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)