Question about In Debt, (Search-Fu fails me :( ) Options

[KCKitsune]

OK everyone, I've got a question about In Debt. Say I have a character built using the 400 BP system (and use all 400 BP) and I take In Debt neg quality, does that mean I get an extra 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for getting gear?

[Mäx]

OK everyone, I've got a question about In Debt. Say I have a character built using the 400 BP system (and use all 400 BP) and I take In Debt neg quality, does that mean I get an extra 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for getting gear?

yes.

[psychophipps]

And each additional level of this quality will net you 5 extra BP and 5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[betterwatchit]

The problem is that you owe the money to a loanshark who sets the interest to 50%...

[Cain]

The problem is that you owe the money to a loanshark who sets the interest to 50%...

And the point is? You're a shadowrunner, by definition you live in the shadows. If the debt ever becomes a serious issue, you fade into the shadows and escape it.

[Ryu]

The problem is that you owe the money to a loanshark who sets the interest to 50%...

The interest rate is only 10%/month, a mere pittance. It´s clearly not the fault of the syndicate that you obviously skipped on a few payments in the past...

[Cardul]

Of course, the repayment does not necessarily HAVE to be money.....Try: Runs without Pay for your debt holder....Or, a debt holder who only accepts payment in kidnapped teenage girls...

(Which raises the question: How much would Tanamous pay for a teenage girl before they cut her up and sell her for parts?)

[raggedhalo]

I rule that unless you start coughing up the Karma to offset the BP you gained at character creation, you aren't allowed to pay off the capital, only the 10% interest per month.

[Ryu]

Did any of your runners take it regardless?

If you are going to pay a quality off, this might easily be the most expensive one (with a minimum charge of 10 karma and a net 3.250¥ per 5 BP: 50% + one month interest), if you don´t, you increase your lifestyle cost by 750¥ per month per 5 BP.
The only real advantage is that you always have the option to pay off this quality, but if your mind works that way, having the quality in the first place is very inconsequential.

[Cardul]

I rule that unless you start coughing up the Karma to offset the BP you gained at character creation, you aren't allowed to pay off the capital, only the 10% interest per month.

Well, duh....that is a no-brainer. If you did it the payment is in Runs, of course, you calculate the value of the runs, and keep 2 Karma per Run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Of course, you never tell the player how much the value of the run actually was...and he has to pay the rest of the team out of his own pocket...

[raggedhalo]

Did any of your runners take it regardless?

With freakish enthusiasm, in fact. Keeps it in line with all the other Negative Qualities.

To be fair, I'd consider allowing a character to swap their In Debt flaw for different flaws of a similar value if the game's circumstance dictated it. I just really object to the "paying cash for BP" that any other method introduces.

[Ryu]

It is a no-brainer as far as application of RAW goes.

Lets have a look: Utility is that you have a few more BP and a bit more money at chargen.
You pay your debt back:
- Monetary effect: Some more liquidity at chargen, but for a crippling interest rate. One should be able to fit "the essentials" into 250k¥.
- Karmic effect: Zero net gain for the karma system, likely a net loss for the BP system. Even your average BP:karma ratio won´t be 1:2, and that is what you pay back at. Advantage: You get to spend karma/BP now, instead of later. Good for the karma system, an iffy bad for the BP system.

You don´t pay it back (in a relevant timeframe):
- Monetary effect: You start to loose money in the sixth month of the game (your accumulated interest is now larger than what you gained in ressources). At 750Â¥ per 10 karma per month this is either a clear opt-in, or a fail, depending on the income level.
- Karma effect: You get to keep the karma.

=>Buying "In Debt" is only "worth it" if you intent to keep the quality regardless of income and accumulated wealth. Despite this debt being the first thing in your portfolio that would have to go in RL.

Not charging karma at all on the other hand makes the BP you are effectivly buying a bit cheap, since the set exchange rate at chargen is 1:5000, and you buy at 1:(1600+x).
This could be compensated for by granting 20.000Â¥ per 5 BP, limit 10 BP, same conditions. Payback still looses you money, and the "no payback" strategy has you pay 300Â¥ per karma per month. MinMaxers will have to consider that 5BP less ressources would loose them 25.000Â¥, while gaining them this way costs 33.000Â¥, minimum - it is a negative quality.

[Wesley Street]

Ryu, I'm picturing you in an office with spreadsheets and graph charts of Shadowrun statistics taped to the walls. You are awesome! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[cryptoknight]

Not charging karma at all on the other hand makes the BP you are effectivly buying a bit cheap, since the set exchange rate at chargen is 1:5000, and you buy at 1:(1600+x).
This could be compensated for by granting 20.000Â¥ per 5 BP, limit 10 BP, same conditions. Payback still looses you money, and the "no payback" strategy has you pay 300Â¥ per karma per month. MinMaxers will have to consider that 5BP less ressources would loose them 25.000Â¥, while gaining them this way costs 33.000Â¥, minimum - it is a negative quality.

This isn't right... you Gain 30 bp and 30,000 nuyen with a 45,000 nuyen debt and 10% interest.

If you spend the 30bp on gear... you just got 150,000 more nuyen. So for a net 0 BP change you get 180,000 nuyen and a 4,500 nuyen per month lifestyle cost increase.

[Ryu]

The bane of controlling (anything can be proven with faulty logic), it strikes again. Yes, I need to consider the money you gain for the BP, too. One could either increase the repaid amount, or reduce the ressource increase from the quality. I think that removing the ressource increase entirely is the easiest way.

You would gain 5 BP (can be used to gain 25k¥), per debt of 30.000¥, at an interest of 10%. Slightly more generous than what I had in mind (but didn´t manage to set up), but no longer a way to go beyond the ressource cap either.



@Wes: You have dreamed of that office, too? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (But thanks! No worries, our actual campaign is not StatisticsRun.)