Upgrading your implants, Do you rip and replace or improve the original? Options

[Tyro]

Let's say I have an Alphaware Cerebral Booster 1. It costs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 20,000.

If I want to upgrade it to rating 2, with a base cost 40k, do I pay 20k (the difference) or 40k (the cost of the new rating)?

What if I want to upgrade standard rating 1 to alpha/beta/delta rating 1? Standard rating 1 to alpha rating 2? Alpha rating 1 to standard rating 2?

And so on.

[Fyndhal]

I always played it that you had to rip out the old set and put in the new, upgraded version. You could sell the old 'ware, but generally couldn't get a whole lot for it.

[Tyro]

I would say, though, that if you're upgrading, say, a synaptic booster (which simply adds new structures to the brain) and the new rating is the same type (std/alpha/beta/delta) as the old, all you're doing is adding more of the same. It would be compatible. Same with wired reflexes, dermal plates, anything with a rating.

It's trickier when you get into changing the quality as well as increasing the rating. Or decreasing, for that matter (if you want the Essence for something else).

[Vermithrax]

I would say you can upgrade as long as its the same corp brand (Renraku, Ares, etc...) and grade (alpha, beta, etc...).
Most players dont bother to choose a brand name for their ware as its usually not gotten through entirely legal channels. In which case it would have to be replaced.

[The Jake]

Pay the full new cost.

I've been kind enough of a GM to assume the value of selling your old cyber is enough to cover the costs of ripping it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

- J.

[Tyro]

Anyone see it the other way? I'd like to have arguments from both sides.

[KarmaInferno]

Depends on the type of implant.

If it's got electronics in it, it likely needs to be replaced, unless it's something like headware memory that you can just increase.

Bone lacing, implant armor, etc probably can be just added to.




-karma

[Tyro]

Depends on the type of implant.

If it's got electronics in it, it likely needs to be replaced, unless it's something like headware memory that you can just increase.

Bone lacing, implant armor, etc probably can be just added to.

That's pretty much how I see it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[masterofm]

Our table has always gone for replacement rather then upgrading. You can generally sell your electronics, but if it is custom tailored to you then it won't go for squat. I think maybe some of it can be upgraded, but anything that is beta or above is custom tailored so trying to sell it or upgraded it I think is pretty much impossible. Other then that you could probably just go by the GMs ruling on upgrading. Personally I would only think things like adding armor, or something like that you could do. Things like bone density are actually different forms of plastic or metal so I would think it wouldn't really work to upgrade it. Cyberlimbs would also be a no no I would think. Most items don't really add on, but augment. Possibly cyber strength, agility, or reaction enhancers could be upgraded instead of ripped out.

I also don't think bioware can really be upgraded.

[Medicineman]

Pay the full new cost.

I've been kind enough of a GM to assume the value of selling your old cyber is enough to cover the costs of ripping it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

- J.

Hmmm,IIRC than the cost of the Operation is allready included in the cost of the 'ware
Wether to Upgrade or to install new ' ware is entirelly up to the Group. If they earn Top ¥ ,
have stashed some 10.000 away,etc they should pay the new cost. If they have to risk their Lives for 500¥
than make them pay only for Upgrade.
to Evolve your Chars is one of the main Fun Parts ( imo )so don't make it toooo hard for them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Cardul]

It very much depends on the type of ware, to me.

Bone Lacing? You are stuck with.
Synaptic Booster: It still costs the same, because the new levels essentially over-writing the old ones.
Dermalsheath? I can see that being just the difference.
Wires(Reflexes, skillwires, move-by-wire) have to be taken out.
Commlinks? Well..case-by-case basis, based on where the Commlink is implanted. If it is in your head? It has to be taken out. If it is in your arm, then it can be upgraded there.
Cybereyes? You have to take the eye out, but, that is to work on installing the new stuff into it, so just the difference. If you are upgrading to a new grade, well, the eye and its mounting have to be taken out...so, full price...

[Naysayer]

I vote for replacing.
I just don't see different levels of ware as "upgrades". Wired reflexes II, IMO, is a wholly different beast than WR I, and not just a bunch of additional wires, just as you wouldn't "upgrade" the 30 horsepower engine of your pinto by adding some valves. If you want a shiny, roaring V8, you have to replace the whole engine, and then some.
And no, I don't think that that is a particularly elegant analogy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Cardul: What do you mean by "Bone Lacing - you're stuck with"?
Because if you mean that a PC is literally stuck with the choice he made when having the ware installed, i.e. at chargen in many cases, that just sounds super double-plus unfun, as it brutally hinders character improvement.
And there would be enough handwavy science-fictiony tech to explain a complete refit, like having the old lacing broke ndown by nanites, preferably in a "long and painful process"...

[Cardul]

@Cardul: What do you mean by "Bone Lacing - you're stuck with"?
Because if you mean that a PC is literally stuck with the choice he made when having the ware installed, i.e. at chargen in many cases, that just sounds super double-plus unfun, as it brutally hinders character improvement.
And there would be enough handwavy science-fictiony tech to explain a complete refit, like having the old lacing broke ndown by nanites, preferably in a "long and painful process"...

No, I really do not believe that you can remove bone-lacing. There should always be somethings that should be "Choose wisely", and bone lacing, to me, is one of those.

[Stahlseele]

there was only evr one piece of cyber that was permanent.
and that was boosted reflexes in sr3 . .
bonelace can, rules wise, be taken out and replaced . .
i'd say that you can simply substract the essence-cost from the next bone-lace, but only the higher bonus does work . .

[The Jake]

Hmmm,IIRC than the cost of the Operation is allready included in the cost of the 'ware
Wether to Upgrade or to install new ' ware is entirelly up to the Group. If they earn Top ¥ ,
have stashed some 10.000 away,etc they should pay the new cost. If they have to risk their Lives for 500¥
than make them pay only for Upgrade.
to Evolve your Chars is one of the main Fun Parts ( imo )so don't make it toooo hard for them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

True. But I actually don't like the idea of player's having surplus funds and often look for ways to deplete it.

- J.

[Oenone]

I generally assumed the RAW was you need to remove the ware you have and add new stuff. Because even in the case of bioware you're not just adding more of something. You're actually adding better stuff.

Take for example muscle augmentation. If you increase the level you'll need to take the old system out and put in a new one because otherwise you're looking at weirdly mishaped muscles and it'll be a disaster waiting to happen. (Because the old system just can't handle the same stress as the new one. Meaning when you go flat out you're likely to tear your own muscles apart).

Same with Synaptic boosters. The cheaper system will transmit signals slower (even if it's only fractionally) than the tissue which makes up the better level of booster. Meaning you'll be sending the same signal twice for every movement you make and getting weird after effect sensations.

Of course I suppose from a GM point of view I might let a player do the above if they didn't mind gaining the buggy 'ware quality for every bit of kit upgraded in such a way.....

As for bone lacing being permenant.... That strikes me as stupid. You simply put someone in a tank and pump thier blood with the right nanites to eat the plastic. Of course it'll require a fair amount of downtime in a tank to get rid of it all, especially if they're not replacing it with another bone lacing type because then you've got to wait for the bones to regrow.

[JFixer]

Looks like the overwhelming interpretation is that the stuff has to be removed and replaced by something new.

I've always looked at upgrades for any /externally accessible/ cyberware though. Anything not requiring invasive surgery. You want to upgrade grades though, needs to be a whole new kitten.

Limbs, eyes, dermal plating, can all be accessed without surgery, and should be outpatient mechanical surgery.

[Tyro]

I could see even dermal sheathing requiring you rip out the old, honestly, if you look at it as "better materials" rather than "more bulk". I don't like it, but I see your points.

[Warlordtheft]

Most things need to be replaced, but upgrading the strength of cyber arms, might be one of those areas I'd say is possible. Ofcourse this assumes that there is capacitcty in the arm for an upgrade.

[Stahlseele]

I could see even dermal sheathing requiring you rip out the old, honestly, if you look at it as "better materials" rather than "more bulk". I don't like it, but I see your points.

look at it from the FFBA angle . .
you start with armoring the torso, neck and head . . level 1
then later on, you upgrade to level 2 . . you're now armored on your belly upper arms and upper legs
then you wanna go the whole nine yards and go to level 3 . . your armor now covers your face, lower arms, lower legs, hands, fingers, feet and toes . .

[ElFenrir]

If I recall, even in RAW; Bone Lacing can be removed and replaced; it's done with nanomachines if I recall. Yes, this is an instance where ''it's nanomachines'' actually works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And yes, the only RAW unremovable piece of cyber that I recall was indeed Boosted Reflexes in SR3.

[Stahlseele]

understandable too.
only big problem with boosted reflexes was the RAW incompatibility with Rigging Stuff . . for whatever reason aside from balance *grins*

[Beetle]

True. But I actually don't like the idea of player's having surplus funds and often look for ways to deplete it.

- J.

God I miss Blackjack's stuff. I still use many of his tables in my games.
--

On topic, I'm of the mindset to remove the gear and have it replaced completely. I like to think for things like armor on cyberlimbs they are replacing the current armor with better alloys and composites in order to keep the weight roughly the same and prevent the end user from dragging the massive armor and metal they've got wired into them on the ground.