Pros or Pawns Options

[BlueMax]

Make all the Transporter jokes you want.

Of late, my group has been quickly completing the mission. That is to say that they do no investigation into the consequences of the mission. If the mission has obvious consequences, they do work to prevent disaster. They do not however, look a two or more layers ahead. There is no implication here that it is always possible to have a positive outcome, only that the negative results may be reduced or at least preparations made.

As I am trying to adapt to Dumpshock, and thus mainstream SR culture, is this considered Professional or the work of Pawns?

Not a poll, please explain. Help a brother out.

Mahalo

BlueMax

[HappyDaze]

As I am trying to adapt to Dumpshock, and thus mainstream SR culture

It's many SR cultures, but hardly a single 'mainstream' exists. You'll find more takes on the SR universe here than anywhere else, but that's because people just don't bother with it too much elsewhere.

[BlueMax]

It's many SR cultures, but hardly a single 'mainstream' exists. You'll find more takes on the SR universe here than anywhere else, but that's because people just don't bother with it too much elsewhere.

I should be clear that one of my goals is to run Shadowrun at local conventions. (since sadly nobody does, although you can get into a dozen games of Firefly)

To do so, I have to drag myself out of SR1-2 and its world, and understand what players expect today.

[coolgrafix]

Is this considered Professional or the work of Pawns?

Yes. =)

All professionals are pawns. At issue is whether or not the crew in question cares.

[Namelessjoe]

i would say although im guilty of this behavior thats the "work of pawns" from a standpoint of self preservation....
you need to know if a jobs bac atleas 1 levle down so you know if eather its bad or who its agianst is going to screw you over...
then agian if the team is super aggresive you could just take out whoever dbl crosses them then they might not care....
as for constructive crittism to curb this behaivor for your team i would plan out a few jobs down the line and bring up old runs with the coments of mr johnson also if they take some jobs you dont want them to take my making it purposly dangerious altho not aperently so.....
anouther is give them really hard jobs but lowball payment and play down danger lvl then they might do more foot work...

[BlueMax]

Yes. =)

All professionals are pawns. At issue is whether or not the crew in question cares.

The current team does not care. Should I expect others to care? If not, that saves a ton of writing...

[Namelessjoe]

yes i would assume some players at cons will care more writing for you but smoother gameplay if it comes up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HappyDaze]

The current team does not care. Should I expect others to care? If not, that saves a ton of writing...

Care in a convention setting? Not quite as much of an issue due to time contraints. In such instances, keep it simple and direct with only a few twists otherwise the players may never complete it.

[Ed_209a]

I would guess that the one-shot nature of convention games would lean towards pink mohawk play styles.

If they anger someone, and that someone can't get to them in the next 3 hours, who cares!

If they blow up a stuffer shack and end up all over the news that evening, who cares!

No next session means no long-term consequences. Many players will still try to be pro on general principles, but not to the extent they would if it really affected them.

[The Jake]

You should be happy your PCs actually conduct investigation.

My PCs are going through the very painful therapy sessions of recovering from D&D syndrome (hack and slash).

- J.

[InfinityzeN]

My PCs do lots of investigation and actually will charge extra fees for a "You gotta do it tonight/now/etc" job. Pretty much they do something like bump the danger up a level and add 10% to the total. If their interested and given a couple hours, they'll do some research and give a thumbs up/down. As far as I can remember, they have only turned down one job after researching it, but did pass it down to their 'students'.

Of course, my runners are highly skilled pros who don't do any Pink Mohawking. They get paid the big bucks to do what they do, but also have big expenses. If offered a $5k a piece job before expenses, it better only take a couple hours and have little to no danger. Otherwise they will just go steal a couple sports cars in the same time-frame and make as much or more money.

Side Note: If it doesn't pay more (after expenses) then the runners can making stealing cars in the same time frame, it doesn't pay nearly enough.

[Browncoatone]

You can be both a pawn and a professional at the same time.

Being professional is all in you character's conduct. Does she finish missions she accepts? Does she keep secrets she vows to keep? Does she keep her temper when provoked? If so she's probably got a reputation as a professional.

Now a pawn is something completely different. A pawn is defined by the Johnson. Anytime the Johnson, or another force, manipulates you and your team to your disadvantage you've become a pawn. If the Johnson hires your team to break into this corporate warehouse and apply fake barcodes to specific crates inside but once inside the warehouse the team learns the hard way that the Johnson was just setting up a breach of security to impress his superiors with the ease that he handled the invaders then you and your team were pawns.

Your example of Transporter is an excellent one. When the French robbers tried to include an extra guy for the get-a-way they were trying to make him a pawn. They tried it again when he decline to take the last guy to a different place from the agreed upon destination. The girl plays him as a pawn when she lies to him about her father being in the shipping container. Yet throughout the movie the Transporter acts professionally.

[BlueMax]

Your example of Transporter is an excellent one. When the French robbers tried to include an extra guy for the get-a-way they were trying to make him a pawn. They tried it again when he decline to take the last guy to a different place from the agreed upon destination. The girl plays him as a pawn when she lies to him about her father being in the shipping container. Yet throughout the movie the Transporter acts professionally.

But he opened the trunk. [violation of professionalism] And he went to feed her. [Meeting the conditions of his moral code]

And that is what makes him a great character. One thing I learned from running Legend of the Five rings, choosing between the lesser of two evils is fun but choosing between paths to hell is more fun. In L5R its easier to set a character in a position where he must violate one part of his code of conduct or another.

I do not know if its possible to expect that from Shadowrun today. Can I expect 2070 runners to have a moral code like Frank?

[InfinityzeN]

I do not know if its possible to expect that from Shadowrun today. Can I expect 2070 runners to have a moral code like Frank?

Depends on if they are actual professional Shadowrunners (Yes) or just gutter trash using the SR rules (No, and actually this seems to be the most common play style).

[Glyph]

I think shadowrunners run the whole gamut. But I think the wannabe's outnumber the real runners, and within the ranks of the real runners, true professionalism is still more the exception than the rule. Runners tend to be a mix of corporate washouts and burnouts, street criminals, and various windmill-tilting idealists who range from naive to unhinged. True pros should be the exception, not the rule.

Personally, I prefer the gutterpunks, with bad decisions, violent confrontations, moral quandries, half-assed plans that fall apart, and characters with real quirks and flaws. A game of dispassionate, meticulous professionals leaves me cold. But that's a personal preference.

[Browncoatone]

true professionalism is still more the exception than the rule.

That's a matter of personal taste, but it wasn't the point I was trying to make, which was:

Professionalism is dependent upon the characters deeds, but being a pawn or not is dependent upon the Johnson's deeds. You can do everything right and still be a pawn if someone else is manipulating the events from a distance. In fact, I think it could be argued from a metaplot perspective that we're all pawns given the presence of Immortal Elves and Dragons.

[Glyph]

A "pro" might be more likely to be a pawn, if they don't care about the Johnson's agenda. A non-professional might be more likely to jump the tracks and find out that something's fishy, or ask questions like "Why does the Johnson want us to add this chemical to these vats? Are we just messing up some experiment, or is the next batch of Jammin' Cola going to kill a few thousand people?"

Of course, the converse might be true. Some pros might consider researching the job and the Johnson as reasonable precautions, given that they are deniable assets and know it, while some non-professionals might be too stupid to ask any questions.

I agree that being a pawn is mostly out of a character's control, but they can mitigate it by not simply blindly following orders. Whether you are a pink mohawk or a dark trenchcoat, a healthy dose of paranoia should be part of every successful runner's makeup.

[BlueMax]

I agree that being a pawn is mostly out of a character's control, but they can mitigate it by not simply blindly following orders. Whether you are a pink mohawk or a dark trenchcoat, a healthy dose of paranoia should be part of every successful runner's makeup.

This is what I have played as Shadowrun for most of my life. Thank you.
I guess I will write the full adventure and hold out hope that all of it gets used.

[InfinityzeN]

Personally, I prefer the gutterpunks, with bad decisions, violent confrontations, moral quandries, half-assed plans that fall apart, and characters with real quirks and flaws. A game of dispassionate, meticulous professionals leaves me cold. But that's a personal preference.

Nothing wrong with gutterpunks and I have run quite a few games of this type. One of the best was the PCs being the heads of a small gang that they built up.

However, I would like to add that being a professional does not make the game dispassionate and meticulous all the time. My players are all running professionals and they are only like that on a job for a Mr. J. On "Down Time Adventures" or player-driven adventures, where it is their personal lives instead of their job, there is just as much bad decisions, moral quandries, quirks, flaws, half-assed plans (of a different sort), etc as in a gutterpunk game. Hell, I try to throw them moral quandries in their professional jobs since they all have personal codes of conduct.

[kanislatrans]

I agree that being a pawn is mostly out of a character's control, but they can mitigate it by not simply blindly following orders. Whether you are a pink mohawk or a dark trenchcoat, a healthy dose of paranoia should be part of every successful runner's makeup.

LOL, but when does a dose of paranoia become unhealthy? Two sessions ago our GM made an off hand fluff comment about The skull and Bones Society and our hacker was on it like a pit bull. Even with the rest of the crew trying to convince him that the Tempo trade had nothing to do with the S and B he spent half the session trying to find leads and info that really had nothing to do with anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) It was a great moment though, cause now when he gets a little out of hand we just mention it and he gets the hint that maybe he's seeing conspiracies in his Alphabits again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

As a Player I like to see more professionalism simply because thats my style. but if the team has a mix of trench coat and Mohawk and everyone works together it can really be rewarding for all.

"We are 'runners, therefore we are pawns. Just remember Mr. Johnson, we are heavily armed pawns who know where you live. We keep it professional and I wont have to tell the chromed troll with all the sharp pointy knives your addy, ya scan?"
-Stonewall, Ork Sami and Negotiator- (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[eidolon]

As I am trying to adapt to Dumpshock, and thus mainstream SR culture, is this considered Professional or the work of Pawns?

The best thing you can do for your game is to not do this.

Seriously. I like DS, I've been around it for a while (not as long as some), but if you want to start feeling like you should pull your hair out, stop playing forever, and take up knitting, try to "fit" your game into the way everyone here plays.

Take the game, step away from the internet, and make it your own. Enjoy it the way your group wants to enjoy it, and forget about whether it fits some random stranger on the internet's visions of "mainstream".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BlueMax]

The best thing you can do for your game is to not do this.

Seriously. I like DS, I've been around it for a while (not as long as some), but if you want to start feeling like you should pull your hair out, stop playing forever, and take up knitting, try to "fit" your game into the way everyone here plays.

Take the game, step away from the internet, and make it your own. Enjoy it the way your group wants to enjoy it, and forget about whether it fits some random stranger on the internet's visions of "mainstream".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

While I agreed with this for years and years, SR4 is dead where I live. The two games I know of both run SR1-2 adventures, though they both dabble in using the SR4 rules ( and modifying them ).

I have seen too many great games go under in my time and I would hate to see Shadowrun die, even if just locally. If I just run a random game at a Convention and it doesn't have a feel players expect, it doesn't do any good for Shadowrun.

[hyzmarca]

Shadowrunners are fiduciary agents of their Johnsons. In order for them to perform their duties correctly they must have the absolute trust of the Johnson. Professions that require such trust generally have rigid standards of ethics established for the purpose of earning and maintaining that trust. There is no shadowrunner licensing board and there is no shadowrunner ethics committee, but there are basic ethical principals that professionals can be expected to follow.

1) Information gained during negotiation remains confidential and should not be used against a Johnson, outside of negotiation. This means, that if you refuse to accept the run for whatever reason, including moral outrage, you're expected to simply ignore what you learn during negotiations. If the Johnson tries to hire you to burn down an orphanage and you refuse, it is unethical to then show up and save that orphanage when he finds a team that is willing to accept that job, and it is equally unethical to leak the plan to the press.
1a) If a shadowrunner refuses a job for any reason, he should not then take a job to prevent that job. Related to 1, but slightly different. Though a shadowrunner might foil the run that they refused without ever using using confidential information, attempting to do so creates an appearance of impropriety that cannot be dispelled.

2)Once a run is accepted, the shadowrunner must make every reasonable effort to complete a run, no matter what complications may arise. If a run must be canceled, do so in a prompt and timely manner so that the Johnson can secure another team.

3) During a run, you represent the Johnson and your actions should should always serve his best interests, rather than your own.
This doesn't necessarily mean no looting, if it is reasonable, but it does certainly mean no profiteering. The object is to complete the job for the Johnson, not to maximize your own gain. Activities which harm the Johnson's interests are right out, as well, even when they are motivated by moral concerns.

4) Information gained during a run is considered confidential and should never be used against a Johnson, even if you are hired to run against him. Shadowrunners are highly mercenary, and shouldn't be expected to abide by the non-competition rules that many other professions have. Realistically, they could, and should, be running for a guy one day and against him the next. It keeps things deniable. But using confidential information you gained during the course of a run against your Johnson is a big violation, no matter the circumstances. Using public information is alright, and there is some leeway with inevitable discoveries, but using run-related secrets against a former Johnson is just unprofessional.

Everything else is a matter of personal preference, but those guidelines allow a Johnson to actually trust a shadowrunner.

[Method]

If your goal is simply to impress upon your players the importance of investigating, have them hired for a few runs were the Johnson sells them on a "cake walk" and it turns out to be a total gang fuck. That or put them in a position where completing the job the quick and easy way pisses of somebody with some clout, but taking some time to understand the situation reveals a mutually beneficial solution for everyone. The key there is to follow up with consequences when they screw up. Of coarse these approaches could be viewed as punitive, and may just piss off your players.

Alternately this sounds like (yet another) problem that could be fixed by talking to your players about their perceptions of the game. They obviously have the "stone-cold professionals never open the briefcase" attitude. If that is the way they want to play thats cool. But maybe they do so because they think that is what is expected. If you tell them that sometimes you might slip in plot twists and clues and they won't (always) be penalized for "unprofessional" conduct they might loosen up a bit. Remember Rule Zero.

[Browncoatone]

hyzmarca I disagree. Shadowrunners are hired for their skill, reputation and deniability. Neither the Johnson nor the runners trust one another or they wouldn't bother with things like anonymity, half payment in advance schemes or bringing weapons to the meet. I'll allow that there are certain conventions that have sprung up concerning covert work but that doesn't mean the parties trust one another.

Of course successful shadowrunner teams will learn that the exploits of their team will spread amongst the shadow community, and thus the value of discretion, but to expect that a team won't use a Johnson's BTL addiction, Yakuza clan ties or favorite stripper/prostitute to the team's advantage, be it directly or in exchange for information they need on another run, is very optimistic to say the least. Where do you think all that information your leg work yields originates from? They didn't read it in his yearbook.

The only things the team should worry about is their survival and reputation. If a team is hired to blow up truck A before midnight and the team learns that the cargo the Johnson actually wants destroyed is on truck B they are not obligated to destroy truck B because that's not what they were contracted for. Similarly, if the cargo of truck A was supposed to be boxes of simsense chips and the team learns that the cargo is actually refugees from China the team is not obligated to commit the massacre just because it is in the Johnson's best interest.

In spite of being covert operatives, the team's conduct will eventually influence their reputation. If the team spends most of the run stealing everything that ain't nailed down rather than quickly and quietly planting the Johnson's manufactured evidence then they're gonna get a reputation as unreliable. If the team is contracted for $10,000 CFS and ends up accepting half that during renegotiation then they'll get a reputation as pushovers.

But trust just doesn't factor into it.