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> Living SINless, It's in the details...
MrSandman666
post Jan 5 2004, 09:37 PM
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After a period of inactivity I'm slowly working my way back into Shadowrun and I'm stumbling about lots of things that I have no clear idea about. These questions arise mainly for the reason that I'll be GMing for novice players and I need to explain the Sixth World to them.

My general question is: How do the SINless live?
Is it all poverty, living in abandoned buildings or can you get some middle class stuff without a SIN as well, as long as you have the money to bribe the right people?
Can you go into a shop and actually buy something with your certifieds or do you need a fake account for everything other than StufferShack? What about restaurants?
What about public transportations? Is it possible to buy subway tickets without a SIN? (Is there a subway in Seattle???)
What about newspaper subscriptions?

Basically: what can you do in normal life without having a decker set up a fake identity?

Other question: How high would you set the monthly cost for maintaining a fake SIN (faking transactions and stuff)?
How tight is security on public transportations? Weapon scanners and chem sniffers on every door or just the occasional patrol checking for tickets?
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6thDragon
post Jan 5 2004, 09:50 PM
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If I remember correctly you need a SIN for anything in the middle, but can get away with luxury or low lifestyle without a SIN.

Yes, you need a SIN to do any public travel. And I think security would depend on many variables with public transportation; the primary variable being the security rating of the overall neighborhood.

I think most restaurants on the upscale side would require a SIN, but you could get away with a certified credstick at the equivalent to a fastfood place.

I don't think you could get a newspaper subscription unless you had it delivered to a business or some other general drop off, but you would still need to pay for it somehow.

Lastly wouldn't you maintain the fake SIN by using it yourself? The deckers is initially paid to generate a background, the longer he goes back and the more detail = a higher rating. I suppose the problem of maintaining a fake SIN would come into play if you maintained several at the same time.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 5 2004, 10:15 PM
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I always thought of being SINless as essentially being an illgeal alien. With the right amount of discretion, I could easily assume a middle lifestyle would be possible. But by that point, an investment in at least a fake SIN would be... advisable.
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Sunday_Gamer
post Jan 5 2004, 11:41 PM
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Being SINless myself, I can tell you, it's harder than it looks.

Things you need a SIN for:

Buying ANYTHING legally from a rubber band to castle in spain. You can't get "change" for a certified credstick without a valid SIN and credstick for them to put the change in, certified credsticks are meant to represent bearer bonds more than cash, there is no cash, officially that is.

Having no SIN makes you a non person, you have NO rights (and yes, cops will often abuse the bejesus out of you because, who cares, you're no one, nothing.)

Let's just say being a full shaman makes being SINless a whole lot easier, I don't see how a non mage could get away with it unless they stayed in the Barrens, where things CAN be gotten for cash but are always more expensive because hey! You're no one, wanna eat? Pay more!

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BitBasher
post Jan 6 2004, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE
there is no cash, officially that is.
Completely wrong, there is definitely hard currency, both copr scrip and government scrip, also know as cash. This has been addressed in several sourcebooks.

QUOTE
Having no SIN makes you a non person, you have NO rights
Wrong, you just do not have the full rights afforded a citizen. Just as an illegal alien still has rights.
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Siege
post Jan 6 2004, 01:52 AM
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But being SINless means they're less inclined to care.

With enough cash, even a SINless person can live pretty well -- but it takes quite a bit of doing.

-Siege
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Sunday_Gamer
post Jan 6 2004, 02:01 AM
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wtf happened to cash being illegal and the stock of the black market??

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BitBasher
post Jan 6 2004, 02:03 AM
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Where did you read that? Scrip has had references in many books.
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Big Crow
post Jan 6 2004, 03:21 AM
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If your an American, the best way to think of of being sinless is living with out a social security number. Not all that big of a deal, unless you want a good job, credit, health care, or resonable protection from being beaten to death by the police. You could live just fine without one, as long as you kept your nose clean.
BTW, cash-money is on the black market because corp scrip is usually not a trasferable form of currency. If you go on a run in Atzlan, you shouls leave all the bills with Damien Knight's face on them at home.
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Fortune
post Jan 6 2004, 03:42 AM
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Corp Scrip isn't the only kind of paper money.

As to Certified Credsticks being 'like bearer bonds': The concensus here is that they are not 'all-or-nothing' things as you describe. You can make numerous small purchases using a Certified Credstick, so there is no need to 'make change'.
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kevyn668
post Jan 6 2004, 04:17 AM
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Yeah, I always thought of Certified Credsticks as sorta like "gift cards" :)
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Fortune
post Jan 6 2004, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (kevyn668)
Yeah, I always thought of Certified Credsticks as sorta like "gift cards"

They are more like pre-paid debit cards. :)
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RedmondLarry
post Jan 6 2004, 04:46 AM
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Besides the street lifestyle (sleeping in alleys and eating out of dumpsters), and the squatter lifestyle (kicking someone out of their run-down shack in the barrens and living there till someone stronger comes along), your Fixer can arrange for a nameless corporation in the Cayman Islands to rent an apartment in Seattle for use by visiting "Executives" of the corporation (you) to use whenever they are in town. Your Fixer can arrange for your rent payments to go to the right place.

Many corporations, like the phone companies, know that their customers don't want to be tracked. That's why telephones are always available to shadowrunners. Today anyone can get a prepaid cellphone from the corner store for contacting their mistress or for their cocaine business. No difference in the Shadowrun world.

Buying most anything in the Shadowrun world can be done with scrip or certified cred if it doesn't have a legality code. Store keepers may figure you are buying something for your mistress, or are a rich tourist from Japan, or an Indian who came across the border to buy gas and junk food, but they'll sell to you.

Most anything with a legality code you've got to purchase through your fixer.

In our campaign we don't need a SIN for the subway, for buses, or for taxis, but I could see a GM requiring it for some of these in his campaign. (No, there is currently no subway in Seattle in 2004, but there is an underground bus tunnel that will probably be expanded into a Subway by 2050.)

With no SIN, you avoid flying, avoid traffic tickets, and avoid getting caught.

If you get a fake SIN, the easiest way to maintain it to have a salary automatically deposited into it's linked checking account every month, use it to pay for your apartment and living costs, and pay taxes. In our campaign, we house-rule that a fake SIN raises in value by 1 every <current rating x 2 months> that you maintain it this way.

In our campaign, only airplanes have high weapon checks. It is too much trouble to put automated weapon checks on other public transportation because of all the people that can legally carry weapons.
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DV8
post Jan 6 2004, 08:25 AM
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Only a few people in this thread are making sense, and if you can't spot them as easy as I can, then there's definitely something wrong with you, and the way you perceive the world.

Let me start out by saying this in regards to being SINless; Being SINless is not a crime. Again, say it with me now; Being SINless is not a crime.

However - and there's always a however, isn't there? - not showing proper identification is a crime. So if you're stopped in the streets by the Star, and you don't have the proper identification on you, you're not in full compliance with the law, which means they can, should they want to, haul your ass down the precinct and book it for violating one of the most basic laws out there. However, since it means that they issue you a Criminal SIN, and all kinds of bureaucratic hassle, they'll most likely just let you go, provided you've done nothing wrong, of course. If you have, well, then you'll have to try your luck and see if the beat-cops are going to play Judge, Jury and Executioner themselves, or put the work in and write you up properly.

Getting around without a SIN is easy as shit. Since when do you need a social security number to get on a bus, train or a subway? (OurTeam is right, by the way, no subways in Seattle in 2004, yet.) Unless they change the system to an airline system, where you can only travel with valid ID (passport, driver's license, etc.) then there should be no problem getting around town. Unless you're living in Denver, of course, when you cross a country's border just going out to get a pack of smokes. So fuck all that idiocy about not being able to travel; it's all noise.

A certified credstick works exactly the same way as a bonded credstick in terms of payment; it has a bank-account attached to it from whence the money is withdrawn when a payment is made. You can also upload nuyen into the account and essentially recharge the credstick. No problem. However, some transactions require a valid ID - and thus, a bonded credstick. Things like a hotel room, or car rental, or some such.

Living in an apartment generally requires a social security number, so if you want to buy or rent, you'll have to have a valid ID. However, as all the illegal immigrants will be able to tell you; there are ways around it. Now, many of these illegal immigrants will move in with relatives who do have a SIN, and if you have nobody you can turn to, then you'll have to bribe a few people. People from the lower echelons of life are bribed faster than those who are going to cost heaps of money to make it worth their while. So yeah, it might cost a bunch of money, and you probably won't have a beautiful place, in the best of neighbourhoods, but it'll keep the rain off your head.

I reckon you should be able to rent anything up to a Low lifestyle shelter without a SIN without too much trouble. Middle will become a bit more difficult, unless you find someone who owns an apartment complex who has little scruples and lets you live there for a hefty sum each month, just as long as you don't complain too much and you pay your rent on time. Oh, and if you don't mind getting evicted with a two minute notice if a person with a SIN comes along who is interested in the apartment, of course.

Work and salary; it's pretty easy, really. No, wait, it's totally hard, and I hope to God I'll never have to do it, but...should you want to work, then it's possible. Down the docks. Construction. As long as you're cheap, and you can be paid off every day - with no garuantee for work the next - and in cash, then it's fine. Sure, you won't make too much money, and the work sucks, but at least you can hop down the StufferShack and get yourself some SoyChow.

Living as a SINless isn't undoable. Hundreds of thousands of people do it every day. Sure, most of them have let their lives degenerate into absolute poverty and squalor, but you'll find that most of those people have more problems than just being SINless. And sure, most of those problems are probably indirectly related to being a SINless...but it's by no means impossible to make a good life for yourself.
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MrSandman666
post Jan 6 2004, 01:55 PM
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Wow, I'm impressed. Didn't expect so many answers in such a short time. Thanks everybody for the input.

I was just wondering why so many runners are living SINless. Or maybe they aren't and it's only a clichee. It seems to be more than worth it to at least purchase a fake SIN either as your primary ID or as a secondary ID next to your legal SIN.

After all, it doesn't seem to provide too many advantages to live SINless. I mean, some people can't help it because they're illegal imigrants or where born SINless or have a Criminal SIN and they'd rather live without one at all than with a Criminal SIN.
The only advantage known to me living without SIN is that you're supposedly not so easily trackable but if someone really wants, they can find you just as easily. Well, maybe not just as easily but it should definately be possible. If they find one of your bullets and investigations yield that it was fired by a gun that was once owned by person XY but was stolen they could find out who stole them, to whom he sold it and so on until they reach Mr. SINless
Or use ritual sorcery, if possible.
You can be lucky of course and the guy who stole the gun you bought from your fixer was never caught. Then the Star would have to find another trace. But then again, if done right, you can make it just as hard for someone to trace you even if you do have a SIN. Buy your illegal stuff and your guns through a fixer. Get one set of weapons for the job through a fixer and one for self-defense, from a store complete with licenses. That way no one can get you into trouble for carying a weapon (it's legal, after all) and you would be very hard to trace on the job. Just be sure to wear a mask and leave no traces to track you by.
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DV8
post Jan 6 2004, 02:13 PM
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For runners, I guess it's not strictly necessary, but if you are running while still assuming your SIN, then you'll have to have a backup identity that you can abuse for work, or you have to be okay with constantly looking over your shoulder and be ready to walk away and leave everything behind when you feel the heat on your back.
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BitBasher
post Jan 6 2004, 04:47 PM
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Most runners are sinless because runners with a SIN have a SHORT career. Leave ANY trace of DNA behind, which gets run against a registry and they get your name, address, Photo, fingerprints, voiceprints, (from credstick verification databases) personal information ect ect. Its nigh impossible not to leave DNA anywhere, ever. As soon as they link a crime to your SIN, which is a horribly easy thing to do, you're screwed. Even a rudimentary investigation will screw you 9 ways to sunday if you have a SIN.

Think about it.

BTW: Nice paraphrase from HEAT DV8 ;)
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6thDragon
post Jan 6 2004, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE
Only a few people in this thread are making sense, and if you can't spot them as easy as I can, then there's definitely something wrong with you, and the way you perceive the world.

I must say, that's a pretty bold statement considering...this is the internet and everyone on this site comes from deferent locations. What is standard for one country/city, may not be the only way it's done all over the world. The number of times one is forced to produce identification documents probably depends on where they live. If you live in the Gaza Strip you probably have to produce ID at least once a day. If you live in America you probably need to be ready to produce ID any time you want to buy alcohol or tobacco.

Yes, you would need a SIN for many things, but could get by without one, not that it would be easy. A character could not own property without a SIN, but could plausible rent without one. However, many places do background/credit checks and as the book states under team lifetyles (3rd edition, page 241) ""For either a Low lifestyle or a luxurious one, there will be no scrutiny-in either case, the landlord is happy to take the money, no questions asked...For Middle and High lifestyle the characters will need someone with a SIN or a very good cover story." As the books says you would need a SIN to live anything above a low lifestyle. Even this low lifestyle would have to take many things into consideration.

On page 238 of the 3rd edition book it also states "a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel-including just buying a bus ticket." This may be because of security concerns. However I would interpret the legal travel as legal, Cross-boarder travel. I can see a bus ticket as a public safety issue, however I still don't see needing a SIN to take a taxi. If a character ever does decide to cross any boarder he better use his real SIN or a damn good fake one.
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Sunday_Gamer
post Jan 7 2004, 04:31 AM
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Well frankly, turkey top-hat window staircase. Kitten baseball snowdrift lamp, scarf couch mountain sailboat.

Sunday.
Just clearly defining myself in the "not making sense" category.
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JackWill
post Jan 7 2004, 07:19 AM
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Yeah a fake SIN is always nice to go by! Heck i normally go by the name Jack Will as a runner.. and some other name like Jose Reviera... hehe.. or Tyrone Jaman yeah i know.. i am a elf.. my parents didn't like me! :D
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DV8
post Jan 7 2004, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
BTW: Nice paraphrase from HEAT DV8 ;)

You're welcome. :D

QUOTE (6thDragon)
QUOTE
Only a few people in this thread are making sense, and if you can't spot them as easy as I can, then there's definitely something wrong with you, and the way you perceive the world.

I must say, that's a pretty bold statement considering...this is the internet and everyone on this site comes from deferent locations. What is standard for one country/city, may not be the only way it's done all over the world. The number of times one is forced to produce identification documents probably depends on where they live. If you live in the Gaza Strip you probably have to produce ID at least once a day. If you live in America you probably need to be ready to produce ID any time you want to buy alcohol or tobacco.

Hmmm, that's a very good point you have there, 6thDragon. You're right. Let me revise my statement; Most authorities in Western(ised) countries require you to be able to identify yourself. How's that?

QUOTE
On page 238 of the 3rd edition book it also states "a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel-including just buying a bus ticket."  This may be because of security concerns.  However I would interpret the legal travel as legal, Cross-boarder travel.  I can see a bus ticket as a public safety issue, however I still don't see needing a SIN to take a taxi.  If a character ever does decide to cross any boarder he better use his real SIN or a damn good fake one.

I agree. That's pretty much how I had interpreted it as well. Seeing as how, in the United States, a lot of non-inner city bus travel goes across state borders, I have to admit I kind of assumed it meant cross-border travel as well when I first read that.
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