What purpose does combat serve for your character, Conceptually speaking. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Dwight]

I'm looking for a list of potential goals a character (PC, NPC, "creature", whatever) could have for initiating or have during an armed physical conflict. Trying to identify and sort out the categories. Here is sort of a rough dump of my brain, is an example I was thinking of, but don't feel limited to this as a template:

- I'm trying to get past an unfriendly to reach a physical location (to pick up an item or gain access to a different area/building/etc.).


Got the idea? No wrong answers, just go!

[InfinityzeN]

My players have actually avoided violance pretty good. Other then hitting someone from surprise with a taser or narcojet, they mostly just use combat for self defense or as a last remaining option. Except for a couple of Player-Driven adventures, in which case it is personal and violence is acceptable. Sooooo...

- Defense when attacked
- Last Option when nothing else has worked and the job needs to be done
- Revenge for a serious past wrong
- Messing with a oomis input (if you don't know the slang, thats messing with a guys lady)

I would say in your example, violence should not be the course of action. Stealth, Con, Intimidation, etc works without causing a massive conflict that can lead to PC death.

[Critias]

Most of mine can sum it up with:

-This is where I earn my keep.

[Stahlseele]

My characters, even if they are not INTENDED to be the Combat-Person of the group, allways end up the best fighter in the group . . because i just don't believe that anyone in the shadows does not at least know how to defend himself . . usually, that means SR3 Pistols and unarmed at least at level 3 . .
but most of the time i don't even bother building anything else than the twinked out combat monkey troll . .
i usually play what's needed, and most of the time it is the heavy hitter *g*
someone has to do it, so the others don't start pushing daisies when someone fucks up . . and we all know it happens at least once per run ^^
if i don't have to fight?
no problem, i will stand in the back and look pretty/intimidating ^^
and i get to say things like:"i frigging told you so!"
or heavy sigh:"why, oh why can't they just do it the easy way for once? i hate doing laundry to get the blood out of my clothes . . i get funny looks if i do that"

[Dwight]

Other then hitting someone from surprise with a taser or narcojet

Did these make your list? I'm looking for those too.

I would say in your example, violence should not be the course of action. Stealth, Con, Intimidation, etc works without causing a massive conflict that can lead to PC death.

So if those fail Violence = Plan B? Is that #2 on your list? How do you see that unfolding. Is it a "the 'Invalid ID' flashes on the scanner, the guards pull their sidearms..." thing. Or are you thinking the characters could still be initiating? And how does that change the goals?

EDIT: And when the guards pull their weapons are the characters thinking "can't get arrested" or are they thinking "gotta get past these shmucks"? Do they have a choice of whether to escalate or not? Or is it "draw or die"?

[Dwight]

Most of mine can sum it up with:

-This is where I earn my keep.

Right, violence is a core part of their job. Could you expand on that? How do they earn their keep with it? What problems does violence the tool solve?

[BlueMax]

For my combat medic, combat serves as a opportunity to eliminate obstacles and show off his skills.

And even if he does not engage in the combat, the results serve as a chance to prove his worth.

BlueMax
First Aid 5, specialization combat wounds.

[Stahlseele]

reasons for initiating combat:
i am getting paid for it.
i might be getting paid for it.
i am pretty sure i can get money for it
i can get HIS money when i am done with it.
he was in the way.
he knew too much.
he did not know enough.
he had something i want.
he wanted something i had.
he could have alerted someone to our presence.
he threatened me.
he threatened someone i like.
he looked at me funny.
he looked funny at someone i like.
i thought he was gonna look at me funny.
I thought he was gonna look at someone i like funny.
I am drunk.
I am bored.
I am bored AND DRUNK.
I thought it would be fun.


Goals while combat has allready been initiated?
WIN
Hurt him more than he hurts me.
hurt him. PERIOD.
not get hurt by allowing someone to fight back, better to take him out right away.
Stopping Combat by any means neccessary. In a way that does not get me into more trouble.


Yes, i mostly play Trolls, Dwarves and Orks, why do you ask? ^^

[Dwight]

For my combat medic, combat serves as a opportunity to eliminate obstacles and show off his skills.

Is this a character goal or yours? No judgements, if you got it flaunt it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was thinking about character goals initially but if this is a player goal that's a great thing to bring up too.

[Dwight]

he did not know enough.

This i'm curious about this one. Can you give an concrete example from a past session or make up a hypothetical one?

The "looked funny" entries are a pride or "stay on top socially" thing? For you or the character? No judgements, it's cool. Or is it just that as a player you really enjoy the combat? If the later what is it about the combat that you like? Is this consistent across all RPGs you play? What are the exceptions or is SR the exception?

Goals while combat has allready been initiated?
WIN
Hurt him more than he hurts me.
hurt him. PERIOD.
not get hurt by allowing someone to fight back, better to take him out right away.
Stopping Combat by any means neccessary. In a way that does not get me into more trouble.

"Tactical retreat" isn't seen as an option? If so why do you think that is the case? Can you think of any situation where you would consider the outcome a "WIN" even if the opponent wasn't physically damaged, or only slightly physically damaged (a few bruises, not unconscious), and could walk/run away?

[InfinityzeN]

So if those fail Violence = Plan B? Is that #2 on your list? How do you see that unfolding. Is it a "the 'Invalid ID' flashes on the scanner, the guards pull their sidearms..." thing. Or are you thinking the characters could still be initiating? And how does that change the goals?

EDIT: And when the guards pull their weapons are the characters thinking "can't get arrested" or are they thinking "gotta get past these shmucks"? Do they have a choice of whether to escalate or not? Or is it "draw or die"?

Actually it would be 'Invalid ID' flashes, the guard starts to pull his scanner, and eats a gel round to the head from a sniper rifle if outside. If inside it would be grab him with the shock glove when his hand grabbed his pistol.

You almost always have a choice wether you escalate or not. Running away works, fast talking to get out, etc. Only time you don't have a choice is when the gun is pulled on you, you got no way out, and he's going to shoot you. But you should never let that happen if possible. Be prepared to take him out quickly and quietly if the sneaky doesn't work.

[Namelessjoe]

it depends on my guy ithink....
my combatmage initates combat on runs out of nessisity for his own meaty saftey but but goes on violent runs because of him being an addrinalyn junky
and its fun
(sorry about the spelling im at work and i dont have a spell check)

[Dwight]

Actually it would be 'Invalid ID' flashes, the guard starts to pull his scanner, and eats a gel round to the head from a sniper rifle if outside. If inside it would be grab him with the shock glove when his hand grabbed his pistol.

That's the hope, right? That you get the drop on them rather than them on you? But drek happens, billboard trucks drive by and break LOS at the incovenient moment, dice turn on you, whatever. Or when you play this doesn't happen? It is assumed that the player can plan it out "perfectly" if they say the right words? And burn enough Edge I guess?

You almost always have a choice wether you escalate or not. Running away works, fast talking to get out, etc. Only time you don't have a choice is when the gun is pulled on you, you got no way out, and he's going to shoot you.

In your game is "surrender" considered an option at all? Or is it assumed (explicitly by the GM? gathered from past experience? why?) that the guard (in this example) is going to shoot you anyway even if you do try to surrender?

What about "run away" if they pull the weapon? Try to get away before they drop you?

[GreyBrother]

For my technomancer, combat in the Matrix means challenge, sometimes even fun, though he prefers a more stealthy con way of entering a node. If he has to hurt somebody, he tries to give him a fair chance to raise the white flag or force him out of the system.
Meat-Combat means survival for him. He just tries to get away fast enough.

The Wolf Shapeshifter i play actually fights a lot, although he is lousy in it. His first in play fight wasn't even a question of "eat or be eaten", he tried to be a good "citizen" (he's from the Czech Republic and quite naive about the law) and attacked two people who tried to kidnap another "Citizen". Now he's gotten shot at from behind with a silver bullet and he found out who it was and that this person wants to kill him for real. For the first time he fears for his life and wants some other person dead.
Add the whisperings of the Dark King to the mix who nudges him towards more destructive magic and i really look forward to our next session.

[Stahlseele]

This i'm curious about this one. Can you give an concrete example from a past session or make up a hypothetical one?



The "looked funny" entries are a pride or "stay on top socially" thing? For you or the character? No judgements, it's cool. Or is it just that as a player you really enjoy the combat? If the later what is it about the combat that you like? Is this consistent across all RPGs you play? What are the exceptions or is SR the exception?

"Tactical retreat" isn't seen as an option? If so why do you think that is the case? Can you think of any situation where you would consider the outcome a "WIN" even if the opponent wasn't physically damaged, or only slightly physically damaged (a few bruises, not unconscious), and could walk/run away?

didn't know enough < = that one? after i figure out he doesn't know enough, he knows too much with the fact that i am trying to find something out. who knows whom he would tell about the troll looking for info about XYZ as soon as i turn my back on him? i usually try not to kill, if he has no way to ID me. stun-damage does work just as well. then tie him up in a comically compromising position somewhere not too hard to find.
like, some closet where people will look next day or he can make himself be heard . .


looked funny at me covers things like rude remark, or in a tense situation as if checking me out as a target, especially in a bar where the athmosphere is thick with violence and alcohol allready . .
i usually try not to be the one to actually do the first attack . . but the best defense in shadowrun is a DEVASTATING offense . . everyone and their mother can actually down a troll, either through magic or tech or drugs/chemicals . . i don't like that risk <.<


Tactical Retreat is a very valid option to do the WIN . . but THAT is more the character/player-pride angle here, than it is with the looked at me funny stuff . .
If my winning is in running and someone is holding me back, i will hit him as hard as possible and then run for it like hell . . hoping he is either is knocked out or knocked back far enough so i can get to safety before he can attack me again . . if, for example, there's someone clinging onto the vehicle we are trying to steal or escape with, then i will concentrate on his hands/fingers so he falls off. . .


but if i get into a real good fight? depends on the other guy, if he is a good fighter but does not really stand a chance, i will usually try and knock him out to spare him . . if there's potentially leathal ammounts of violence involed, such as knives, guns or i know him to be an adept or something similar? all bets are off, i will do the most grivious damage to take him out of the fight no matter what. if he's only knocked out? good enough for me . . if he just does not keel over despite me pelting him with stun damage? i'm gonna rip him apart, starting with the arms, if i have to i will continue with the legs and keep the head for the last part so he can enjoy/think about simply giving up . .

[Dwight]

...and attacked two people who tried to kidnap another "Citizen".

Which of the following, or others you could add, were goals and give them in rough order of importance to him (in your mind):
- extracting the victim from their custody
- metting out pain/punishment (death?)
- or capturing the two [alive]

Did they already have the victim inhand? Were they chasing the victim? Incidentally did the GM hae a pretty good idea how you would have your character react? Did he set this up purposely in that way? How did this happen?

[Dwight]

So Stahlseele, pressing hard is about the other side not yielding or unlikely to yield easily, and being "dangerous"? You would accept a surrender then, right? Barring extremes in emotional context of hate, fear (even face down and hands on the back of their head you fear them), revenge (oomis mentioned earlier, something like that), etc.?

EDIT: Still curious about the "does not know enough" or was that just tossed in to cover the bases in the vein of "I play violent characters that regularly take violent actions, action that may not even have much of a logical reason...their coupon for anger management classes expired".

[BlueMax]

Is this a character goal or yours? No judgements, if you got it flaunt it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was thinking about character goals initially but if this is a player goal that's a great thing to bring up too.

Its his goal.

My goal in games is to lay down massive amounts of groaners.

[Stahlseele]

depends.
if there's grounds for revenge, i will exact that revenge as i see fit.
if there's no chance for me meeting the other guy again?
heck, i usually play military or ex cop type guys. i have no qualms about hurting people.
but if they surrender and haven't done anything to excite my wrath, i will shoot them with tranq-darts or shock them into oblivion, then tie them up and leave them in a comically embarassing position somewhere ^^

"I play violent characters that regularly take violent actions, action that may not even have much of a logical reason...their coupon for anger management classes expired".

that's golden, i am SO stealing this ^^

if he does not know what i want to know, he knows that i want to know it. thus, he isn't in the doesn't know enough, but in the knows too much group of people. through no fault of his own, really, but eh.
life ain't fair, so why should i be?

[GreyBrother]

They had the victim already at hand and i don't think the GM had an idea about what the character would do. We never found out how they snatched him.

Capturing the two alive was the most important thing to him (since it was the "Right" thing to do, you know?), extrancting the victim wouldn't be as much as a goal since it would happen if he could thwart their plans. Killing or inflicting pain intentionally wasn't an option to him ever. It would be "wrong" you see?

[Dwight]

Its his goal.

Ok, wasn't sure about the capitalizaton. Great, that's interesting. So the purpose of his showing of his skills is to establish to the rest of the team his value? As pecking order? An ego builder? Doesn't really matter what happens as long as he looks good doing it?

[BlueMax]

Ok, wasn't sure about the capitalizaton. Great, that's interesting. So the purpose of his showing of his skills is to establish to the rest of the team his value? As pecking order? An ego builder? Doesn't really matter what happens as long as he looks good doing it?

The order you listed. Value, Pecking order (like any good corpsman he should be protected), Ego Builder for certain as he is over 40 and runs around with kids.

As for the last one, "Doesn't really matter what happens as long as he gets to make a snarky comment"

[Dwight]

They had the victim already at hand and i don't think the GM had an idea about what the character would do. We never found out how they snatched him.

Capturing the two alive was the most important thing to him (since it was the "Right" thing to do, you know?), extrancting the victim wouldn't be as much as a goal since it would happen if he could thwart their plans. Killing or inflicting pain intentionally wasn't an option to him ever. It would be "wrong" you see?

I believe so. Thanks, that's great info. Do you normally play "moral" characters like this? I assume his criminal/outsider status is largely due to being born?

[GreyBrother]

Dwight: He is actually "legal". His SIN even gives away his Race. His "Moral" is learned, like most children he doesn't realize that people can lie and don't live up their expectations (it was a bit of work for the group to convince him that the Caracas police force is as criminal as a... yes criminal). His morale is black/white. Something is either right or wrong and the law dictates whats right and whats wrong. And to be a good citizen means acting according the law. But most of it is too complex for him, so he actually evades the more complex human matters. It's a great theme for him and he fits the campaign really good, since everybody is actually legal and no one's in the shadows.

Normally my characters try to be very moralic (right word?), but most of them define morale quite differently than other people.

[AllTheNothing]

My characters always have a strong survival instinct, they "fear" combat because they know it's a good way to get killed so they try to avoid it; however they always plan in case combat breakes out (being in combat without being prepared for it reduces chances of survival much more than being in combat prepared), either for getting the job done by force or just for getting out of there alive.