What purpose does combat serve for your character, Conceptually speaking. Options

[InfinityzeN]

That's the hope, right? That you get the drop on them rather than them on you? But drek happens, billboard trucks drive by and break LOS at the incovenient moment, dice turn on you, whatever. Or when you play this doesn't happen? It is assumed that the player can plan it out "perfectly" if they say the right words? And burn enough Edge I guess?

In your game is "surrender" considered an option at all? Or is it assumed (explicitly by the GM? gathered from past experience? why?) that the guard (in this example) is going to shoot you anyway even if you do try to surrender?

What about "run away" if they pull the weapon? Try to get away before they drop you?

Drek happens and the players don't always plan perfectly. I'm just trying to point out that my characters try to avoid direct combat during jobs. And surrender is an option, though actually getting handed to the Star pretty much equals end of character.

[Stahlseele]

mind you, i am still playing SR3 . . there it was way more easy to do really dumb/silly things in combat . . you could get to 2/3 implanted armor in char-gen and with 8 worn armor you could pretty reliably survive most things below full auto or snipers and other heavy weapons . . and trolls in close combat especially with close combat weapons were pretty much horrible . .

[Dwight]

Drek happens and the players don't always plan perfectly. I'm just trying to point out that my characters try to avoid direct combat during jobs.

I get the "ideal". But I'm more concerned about when it does happen. What that looks like, the full range of possibilities, that have happened or that you can conceive of happening. Although frequency of it happening, how often and in which ways is good too. Counting the bushwack of tasering/sniping/narcoing the "unaware" (beaking these out as a separate number would be great).

And surrender is an option, though actually getting handed to the Star pretty much equals end of character.

How soon do they have the character "in the bag", the point of taking the character sheet and shredding it? Is the character still in play till they get to a detention center? How about even then, is there considered an opening for comrades to break them out? Is it the GM saying "I'll take that character sheet, I'm running low on newspaper for my parakeet" or is it the other players conceding by saying something like "hey, while you are busy making a new character could you order the pizza?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[InfinityzeN]

On the job combat/violence...
- Subdue the guard/target through indirect means (gas, micky in their drink, etc)
- Subdue the guard/target through direct sneaky means (tasering/drug sniping/narcoing while "unaware")
- Subdue the guard/target through direct means (Stun Baton/Tasering/Ass beating/SnS/Rubber Bullets)
- Defense when attacked (Ammo type used depends on target)
- If it is the job (Cause havek/ Kill So&So/ Teach So&So a lesson)
- Last Option when nothing else has worked and the job needs to be done
- If it is the fastest and easiest way to get a job done (Watch out for the drawbacks though)

Off the job combat/violence...
- Revenge for a serious past wrong (normally past job related)
- Messing with a oomis input (if you don't know the slang, thats messing with a guys lady)
- To relax (Just like the military grunts... drink and get into a fist fight in a bar)
- Show the local Gang they really don't want to mess with the party (non-lethal means mostly aka Ass Beating)
- PC to PC in character "WTF is wrong with you?!" nose punch (I actually thought the PCs were pissed at each other at first. Told them to calm down, one looked at me and said "Dude we're roll playing" all calm, then right back to the cursing, followed by the nose punch, and a "I can't believe you punched me! You punched my farking nose! WTF man?!" It was priceless. Wish I had recorded it.)

That answer your questions? Oh yea, in the bag is when he gets so far along that the other PCs won't attempt a rescue. So it is when the other players conced to it, since I'll let them attempt a rescue from jail, prison, middle of the trial, etc. Actually, after playing Saints Row 2, I want to run a rescue in the middle of trial scene. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Fyndhal]

In last nights SR3 game, my PhysAd initiated violence against someone because they gave him an answer he didn't like.

In the situation you outlined, I'd let the face try to con the obstacle first, if he was around. If the face wasn't there, I'd go for trying to sneak past. Only in the most time crucial, gotta do this *RIGHT FRAGGIN' NOW!* situation would I just walk up to the guy and open up a can of whoop-ass.

Diplomacy is based on the possibility of violence; this is the same reason a good runner group should have at least 1 or 2 combat specialists in their ranks. Most of the time, it isn't necessary, but without the possibility many of the options a group use would end up being too risky.

[Dwight]

In last nights SR3 game, my PhysAd initiated violence against someone because they gave him an answer he didn't like.

What was he hoping to accomplish? Inflict pain and/or fear to get a different answer? Building a reputation so you don't get unsatisfactory answers from him or others in the future? How did it work out?

[Dwight]

That answer your questions?

Oh I got more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm ultimately shooting for a level underneath your answers (more on that in a future post). But yeah, thanks for your time and effort, it's helpful for me trying to distill it all down.

- To relax (Just like the military grunts... drink and get into a fist fight in a bar)

Largely non-leathal? Sort of a "sport" of sorts, where there is he goal of the combatants is being the last standing?

[InfinityzeN]

Largely non-leathal? Sort of a "sport" of sorts, where there is he goal of the combatants is being the last standing?

Yep. I see you've never been in a bar near a military base. The locals fight with the military for "stealing their girls". The military goes to the bar because they want to work out some agression/fight and they know the locals will start something.

I learned about this real quick, the haircut kinda gives you away. I actually didn't want to fight the first time it happen, tried talking my way out, and got beat down by 4 or 5 guys. But I learned my lesson after that.

[Fyndhal]

What was he hoping to accomplish? Inflict pain and/or fear to get a different answer? Building a reputation so you don't get unsatisfactory answers from him or others in the future? How did it work out?

It was strictly punitive. He was being an ass in a stressful situation, so I decided he needed to get smacked. Unfortunately, while my physad rolls 11d for unarmed, he rolled poorly, and this being 3rd ed, he ended up getting smacked instead. Embarrassing...

[Dwight]

Yep. I see you've never been in a bar near a military base. The locals fight with the military for "stealing their girls". The military goes to the bar because they want to work out some agression/fight and they know the locals will start something.

Never been but have a few ex-military friends. The MPs show up, everyone gets a bus ride home, repeat next Saturday night. I was just making sure you were keeping the non-lethal part of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

If I'm playing a "professional" character, violence is a tool. Just like diplomacy, bribery, and stealth, violence is just another way to accomplish the task at hand. Sometimes, it's the easiest and best way; other times, it's the worst thing you can do. But in any case, the willingness to resort to violence is often what makes a shadowrunner useful.

[Stahlseele]

Violence:
if it was your last means of success, you have not tried to solve the problem at hand with violence fast enough.
if it did not solve the problem, you obviously did not use enough of it.

[BlueMax]

Violence:
if it was your last means of success, you have not tried to solve the problem at hand with violence fast enough.
if it did not solve the problem, you obviously did not use enough of it.

I like you.

[Stahlseele]

thank you O.o

[Dexim]

When the other party members include a mage nicknamed "sparky", a gunbunny wielding a gauss rifle, and a troll switching between an assault cannon and minigun, my hacker doesn't play a large role in dealing violence. He's much more of the run away type, cut a deal if caught, break out later if necessary. At least, that's as far as physical violence goes. In the matrix, he'll fight if discovered and there's only little opposition, or if it's vital to stay put in a node for various reasons (like keeping the physical security away from the group).

[Browncoatone]

Combat inevitably serves one of two purposes:

1. To neutralize a threat.

2. To force your will upon another.

However I don't consider sniping someone from a kilometer away, drugging/poisoning someone's drink, or hacking someone's SIN into oblivion to be combat though each of those could be used to fullfill both of the above purposes.

[counterveil]

My goal in games is to lay down massive amounts of groaners.

Dammit I wish I had read this post *before* letting you in my game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually, I think your character's goal now is to do anything he can to wear the armored lederhosen with UCAS flag pattern and eagle patch in attack mode on the butt.

[BlueMax]

Dammit I wish I had read this post *before* letting you in my game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually, I think your character's goal now is to do anything he can to wear the armored lederhosen with UCAS flag pattern and eagle patch in attack mode on the butt.

/me dances around waving his arms in the air.
// is not wearing a shirt with those lederhosen
// samples Counterveil saying " I should have never let you buy those lederhosen" into the mix

It looks like I am meeting my goals.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Well the fighting characters can say anything from "it's were I earn my keep" to "I just loves me to squash some hoomies!" to, "I love explosions!!!" to, "I look for an opponent that can defeat me in in battle and prove that I am not the greatest warrior" to "it's my holy duty to kill in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster".

Group wise fighting is what happens when they fuck up. The non-fighting characters are generally terrified of fights because...well they suck at fighting from over optimizing one one thing. So it's fun to see them squeal and run for cover.

[Riley37]

I like the way the question has been raised.

I've run two SR4 characters. Both had goals which could in theory be accomplished with no violence at all. In theory.

Rims got in fights...
1) because he was trespassing in a gang's territory, on his way to get something for Mr. Johnson
2) because he was attacked by gang survivors afterwards
3) because he wanted to finish that vendetta, wanted the threat permanently ended
(the gang was controlled by a shedim, so the vendetta ended with a quest to the shedim's home plane!)
4) because he resented the JIS takeover of his hometown AND the Resistance was paying him; in that case, he preferred killing enemies, rather than just KO'ing them
5) because pirates wanted to capture the ship he was on, and he didn't want that ship captured

As a player I want simulated challenge, while my PCs are more interested in success. If we make a good plan and the GM says "it all works just as planned, you grab the widget and get away and get paid", then my PC is happy and spends the pay; but as a player I'll say "hey, that's boring, I wanna roll some handfuls of dice and get my DV on!".

[toturi]

As a player I want simulated challenge, while my PCs are more interested in success. If we make a good plan and the GM says "it all works just as planned, you grab the widget and get away and get paid", then my PC is happy and spends the pay; but as a player I'll say "hey, that's boring, I wanna roll some handfuls of dice and get my DV on!".

Eh? Why insist on adding complications(combat in this case) when you already need to roll handful of dice to "grab the widget"? Doing legwork, sneaking around, etc is plenty fun in my book.

As I tell my players, do it right, it is boooooriiiiing. Do it wrong, and you get to regret it as you write up a new character.

[Whipstitch]

My characters tend to be Magicians and I generally do not believe it is their role to dominate meatside combat, so it's something I generally avoid even if my characters are rather good at it. After all, being a magician can burn up bps and karma rather quickly, but they do have the luxury of being able ot defend themselves primarily through skills and stats that also double as utility traits. As far as I'm concerned, being able to provide Stunbolt or Turn to Goo while simultaneously providing counterspelling and bound spirit backup is more than enough to justify your place in a combat roster. That said, I'd much rather show off my versatilty than simply Fireball everthing to death. Drain is bad enough as it is without adding return fire into the mix.

Astral combat and Awakened threats, on the other hand are roles I always take very seriously. My Magicians always have a decent Astral Combat pool since it doubles both as a defense stat and as a useful offensive tool in the event that my spellcasting score is too hampered by background count or counterspelling. Generally speaking, I always try to exploit the Astral to its full potential, and often this does include picking the occasional fight.

[Stahlseele]

As I tell my players, do it right, it is boooooriiiiing. Do it wrong, and you get to regret it as you write up a new character.

that does not sound as if playing like that is any fun at all somehow . .
if i do something right, i will be bored and when i do something wrong and start having frun from that i get killed and need a new character?

[evilgoattea]

I let my players be as violent as they want during a mission, though at a cost. I have an awareness system that I use. The more noisy and crazy they are the higher the meter goes (from 1 to 20), the higher the meter is the more chance for encounters with guards. Last mission didn't go so well for em because they tried a less than subtle approach lol. I have one character who's answer to everything is "let's blow it up and see what happens".

-Josh

[ElFenrir]

Depends on the character. Some of them try to avoid it at all costs; they have no reason to kill, let alone fight(my magical scientist.)

My current character is an ex-security specialist turned sort of sam/bodyguard, with the Semper Paratis code of conduct. He does have a sort of streak in him, that no matter what he has to do, no harm will come to his charge. If it's simple intimidation, so be it. If he has to mangle a person, so be it. He does not particularly like the latter, but his code simply comes into play too strongly. In non bodyguard-like situations, he does not like taking out ''the little guys'' (he used to work for them and knows they are just guys on the job, after all), so he tends to either intimidate/try to discuss with, or use non-lethal ways of taking them out; non-lethal is still violence, and sometimes it does come to that. He's got no aversion to violence, he simply does not particularly get any pleasure from it(though there have been certain individuals which he was a bit more...mean to, I'll say.) That's also an aspect of himself he'd like to get more under control.