Initiate before MAgic of 6?, Did some one make a mistake? Options

[Stormdrake]

Ok in the latest e-booklet for Street Magic it gives the following example:

Benny is an adept with Initiate Grade 3, Magic 4 and a spiffy new infusion focus (4) (Astral Perception).

Does this mean one can initiate before having a magic stat of 6? My thinking is no but wanted to see if I had missed some majot change in the rules.

[Matsci]

Ok in the latest e-booklet for Street Magic it gives the following example:

Benny is an adept with Initiate Grade 3, Magic 4 and a spiffy new infusion focus (4) (Astral Perception).

Does this mean one can initiate before having a magic stat of 6? My thinking is no but wanted to see if I had missed some majot change in the rules.

A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute.
If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.

That's about the only limit on initiation.

[Malachi]

Yes, you can Initiate before reaching Magic 6. The only rule is that your Initiation Grade cannot exceed your Magic Attribute.

[Warlordtheft]

Initiation grade is seperate from your magic attribute. Getting the next level of initiation gives you the ability to raise your magic attribute by 1 higher than normal. So a grade 3 initiate can in theory raise their magic to 9. It does not mean however that a person's magic attribute is automatically raised.

[GreyBrother]

Yes.

Yes, you can initiate whenever you want, even with Magic 1. But most GMs i know want the character to at least go up to magic 5, just that you can justify your "understandings in the higher spheres"

[Stormdrake]

Thank you!
Got stuck thinking in 3rd edition, my bad. One follow up question then, if initiating does not require a specific magic rating can one initiate at chargen?

[Speed Wraith]

I don't believe I've seen a BP cost for doing that, so it would be up to the GM to determine if it is possible - though I'd suggest only allowing it if you're starting characters with karma.

[AllTheNothing]

As other people before me have already pointed out, it can be done; usualy it doesn't make much sense.
Initiation gives access to one metamagical technique, allows magician to access metaplanes and raises the cap on magic attribute by one; if the character hasn't maxed out his/hers magic attribute initiating makes sense only for aquiring desired metamagic or (unlikely and only aviable to full magicians) to open metaplanes, however if the GM allows the PC to learn metamagic (optional rule in Street Magic) the reasons to do it are nearly non-existing (if the GM doesn't allow it initiating ahead of time to aquire tricks such as Masking, Extended Masking and/or Flexible Signature may be worth).

[AllTheNothing]

Thank you!
Got stuck thinking in 3rd edition, my bad. One follow up question then, if initiating does not require a specific magic rating can one initiate at chargen?

I think that initiation at chargen is not meant to be, and I don't rebember where but it was stated clearly (or at least I think).

[Metapunk]

initiation cost 10 + (grade x3) in karma. page 189. SR4
so cant be done at chargen, and I as GM would not find out a BP cost for it at chargen:)

anyways, it is possible to initiate before having a maxed magic, but like other GM's I favor the idea of a magician to have a magic else I see no sense in him going further:P

that being said I see no problem with the adept, his skills are not as much magical knowledge based and I would allow my adepts to initiate with a magic of 3+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

hope that is a little helpful and at least not wrong:P

PS. I have no idea if starting a char with karma can initiate, never tried karmagen yet:P

[AllTheNothing]

PS. I have no idea if starting a char with karma can initiate, never tried karmagen yet:P

It's not stated because characters should initiate after chargen, however it's not hard to put it into the karmagen: it falls under the not-attribute/everything-else part of the karma spent and costs exactly as in-game initiation.

[JFixer]

I've been reading a lot on this lately, looking forward to initiating my group's Shaman and Adepts.

Lots of stuff to look forward to in-game. Lots of potential.

[Ancient History]

It's not stated because characters should initiate after chargen, however it's not hard to put it into the karmagen: it falls under the not-attribute/everything-else part of the karma spent and costs exactly as in-game initiation.

Beg pardon? I'm nothing if not comprehensive. It's listed as an option for tweaking Karmagen.

[Jhaiisiin]

For quick reference, Runners Companion, Pg 43, upper right black box mentions varied advanced or advancement options. This is what AH is referring to. So yes, per the rules, you *can* initiate at character generation with the karma gen system, pending GM Approval

[Lyonheart]

The rules allow for versatility. You may not want to play a Mage with a starting Magic less then 6 but that doesn't mean everyone does. Cybereyes for example can be extremely useful to a mage. but would limit you to magic 5 before initiation. Also a magic of 1 or 2 could allow an Spec Ops type to cast inviability, or a Rigger to summon a spirit to use movement on there ride. They might want initiate too. This isn't D&D where multiclassing bones you.

[Hagga]

Doesn't it say under the magician qualities in the books "Don't let your players take this if it's just for one or two spells?"

[Rad]

There's a difference between rules abuse and interesting character design.

That difference is called GM approval.

[Ryu]

I frequently play magicians with an effective magic of 4 and a few grades of initiation. If my group tried to force me to increase magic to 5/6, I think I would just have to give in...

Anything that supports the idea of max. magic at all cost should IMO be avoided. Initiation opens up some colourful options, without dominating the rest of the game, unless the route to magic 6+ is a given, too. Overcasting at force 12? My mage can´t do it. He can, however, mask himself, and survive invoking force 4 greatform spirits (which are terribly inefficient compared to high-force summoned spirits).

[pbangarth]

I frequently play magicians with an effective magic of 4 and a few grades of initiation. If my group tried to force me to increase magic to 5/6, I think I would just have to give in...

Anything that supports the idea of max. magic at all cost should IMO be avoided. Initiation opens up some colourful options, without dominating the rest of the game, unless the route to magic 6+ is a given, too. Overcasting at force 12? My mage can´t do it. He can, however, mask himself, and survive invoking force 4 greatform spirits (which are terribly inefficient compared to high-force summoned spirits).

I concur that maxing out magic is not always profitable. There are a lot of things you can do with those BPs.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that bound/invoked spirits are 'terribly inefficient' compared to higher Force summoned spirits. If all your spirits do is beat on things, sure. But there are a lot of functions only bound spirits can do. Invoking beefs up the Physical Attributes of spirits, allows access to some spiffy new powers, and turns LOS powers into LOS(A) powers, including an area-effect Engulf that can automatically miss you and your buddies.

Peter

[Ryu]

I can get more Concealment dice, better magical guard, and usually better stats from a summoned spirit. Raw power mostly depends on the force rating.

I´m happy with my greatforms. ItnW-8 is a nice spot to be in - the GM doesn´t have to break out the big guns all the time, and I´m getting quite a bit flexibility in return.

[Speed Wraith]

This isn't D&D where multiclassing bones you.

Slightly off-topic, but D&D (not that 4e BS, maybe that's what you're talking about?) practically requires you to multiclass...

[ravensmuse]

It does, but it still borks you if you don't plan it out properly (if you're playing 3.*). And the 4e multiclassing rules are there to prevent fighter/cleric/rogue/mystic theurge/hey this prestige class from this shifty 3rd party supplement looks good...garbage that came out of that.

completely off-topic.

[AllTheNothing]

Beg pardon? I'm nothing if not comprehensive. It's listed as an option for tweaking Karmagen.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) Did I question your knowledge or your work? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
If so I realy failed in the comunication department; I knew of that little bit but being labeled as "tweaking the rules" I thought that developers left out initiation from chargen porpousfully, and that adding it is something that GM does at his own game's balance risk. With my previous post I was just telling that; in any case I apologize for any offensive phrase that I might have spoken (written) without realizing it, you know my english covers the bare minimum for comunication and sometimes glitches.