Program Degradation, Why not to play hackers? Options

[JFixer]

Am I reading this right? Your legal programs have a subscription cost, at 10% of the buy price of the program, which makes them not degrade. Illegal (hacking) programs, for which there are MANY MORE... require you to buy a new copy every month to keep them up at six, thus costing about, oh, 6k every month to maintain the highest standard of programs?

[Adarael]

Sometimes, certain rules are just best ignored.

[Lyonheart]

Take a Wares group as a rating 6 contact, You patch one, they patch 6 for you. I also like the open source rules, then your programs are all free, as in Beer.

The real question is why you paid for them in the first place...

Your a hacker...

Hack...

The rule only people the rule really hurts is teams that where trying to get buy without a hacker

[Rad]

Or you can assume the hacker is patching them him/her(it?)self during downtime.

Also, pretty much any program that doesn't have a forbidden availability is considered to be legal and registered by default. They get the Registered and Copy Protection program options for free--which means no degradation. Dunno where you're getting that 10% subscription cost from, though I vaguely remember reading something about it. I think that's supposed to be subsumed in the character's lifestyle costs.

[Coldan]

First of all, you don't need to pay 10% of your legal programs cost just to maintain them. They don't degenerate at all, the subscripton is allready paid when you buy the programs.
When you buy cracked programs, you will have to pay only 10% of the normal costs, but they degenerate. To keep them up, you will have to pay 10% of the difference of the cost of the wanted rating (maximal your former rating) and the cost of the current rating.

Well with every program at rating 6 you will pay about a solid lifestyle for it, but hey, you can also get the patches by hacking the update servers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ryu]

Think of SOTA as "this is your problem, now deal". And then you get to be active in the hacker scene.

The few k¥ you need to keep your programs updated can be earned within a few hours by performing hacker services. Or you exchange code your hacker is creating all day, anyway.

Or you allow open source into the game (optional rule), and unimportant programs are left at rating 4. Less book-keeping, and finally an incentive to use less than rating 6/5.

[JFixer]

Well with every program at rating 6 you will pay about a solid lifestyle for it, but hey, you can also get the patches by hacking the update servers

Yes, and this is just fine, but there are only, what eight programs that are legal to have an 'update server' for? No one does 'updates' on an illegal program. There are also employed spiders/hackers trying to find those networks you use for illegal code, to shut them down, and likely trying to hire shadowrunners to find them, and eliminate the danger to their system security.

So, yes, if you try to keep all your illegal programs at 6, you're looking at 4-7k a month. Good to know. I /did/ have a reason for a player to bother coding their own programs now though... shareware circles. You give your buddy your R6 Exploit, he gives you his R6 Stealth, and the other guy in the trade circle passes on his R6 Armor, and the FOURTH guy gives over his R6 Attack. These programs, because they're only being used by a handful of people instead of a group of 500+, degrade much less often, instead requiring a 1d6 roll each month to see if the rating or more is rolled, at which point the program drops one rating. Requires a contact group or group of hackers, and a reason for bothering to code your own trash.

[Ryu]

Seven legal programs. No SOTA degradation for legal copies, 1 rating point every two month for warez. If you maintain the software (and you should), you pay 7*(600-500)*10%=70Â¥, every other month, so 35Â¥/month

The main book has 15 hacking programs. No SOTA for "legal" copies, 1 rating point per month for warez. 15*(6000-5000)*10%= 1500Â¥.

Add a few agents (250¥ every other month at rating 6), and you pay maybe 2k¥ per month, and most of that can be shared with the rest of the group.

Where does the 7k¥-figure come from?

[raggedhalo]

Coldan's right. Legal programs (i.e. ones with the Copy Protection and Registration mods) update themselves automatically, for free, every month. But, because of the Registration, are pretty traceable and thus probably not what you want to use on a run.

Any pirated programs you own degrade at a rate of one point a month (if they're Hacking Programs) or every two months (if they're Common Use). It costs you 10% of the price difference between the current rating and the degraded rating to purchase a patch, assuming you have a suitable contact or spend some time Data Searching. Or you could program your own.

It's actually really very balanced, as your pirated programs only cost 10% of base cost to start with anyhow.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Am I reading this right?

No. Every software needs to be patched every month or two.

Software that is commercially bought and registered to a SIN is patched automatically. Meaning your identity is revealed by the software you use.

Selfwritten, free or cracked software need it patches written, or in the cracked cases, bought, hacked or spoofed.


The ones who suffer most from this rule are not hackers, but the average runner. Pretty much all of his gear runs software that he can't have registered to a SIN for obvious reasons. Now, look up to his bright options, calculate the time he'd need to invest to do so... and cry.

[hobgoblin]

fake sin is your friend.

and im not sure that degradation is supposed to be extended beyond the hacker tools...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

First off, the degradation rules in the current wording cover all software.

fake sin is your friend.

No. Runner's need to be able to change their IDs - and if every piece of software you are running is telling another ID than the one you are currently sporting... not to mention you will be profiled by your software easily.

[Fuchs]

Seven legal programs. No SOTA degradation for legal copies, 1 rating point every two month for warez. If you maintain the software (and you should), you pay 7*(600-500)*10%=70Â¥, every other month, so 35Â¥/month

The main book has 15 hacking programs. No SOTA for "legal" copies, 1 rating point per month for warez. 15*(6000-5000)*10%= 1500Â¥.

Add a few agents (250¥ every other month at rating 6), and you pay maybe 2k¥ per month, and most of that can be shared with the rest of the group.

Where does the 7k¥-figure come from?

Yes. My hacker's programs upkeep cost about 1600 Nuyen per month - not really a whole lifetyle. (And that lifestyle can be spoofed too.)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Where does the 7k¥-figure come from?

Add in skillsoft, firewall, system (per device model), pilot (per drone/vehicle model), autosoft, sensorsoft, the tacsoft...

[Beetle]

Add in skillsoft, firewall, system (per device model), pilot (per drone/vehicle model), autosoft, sensorsoft, the tacsoft...

I think you're micromanaging yourself or players into bankruptcy for optional rules.

[Ryu]

Add in skillsoft, firewall, system (per device model), pilot (per drone/vehicle model), autosoft, sensorsoft, the tacsoft...

I´m aware of the theoretical possibility, that´s why I asked what software the char in question has. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[raggedhalo]

The only programs that degrade and/or can be bought as pirate software are Firewall, System/Pilot, Agents, Common Use programs and Hacking programs. Autosofts, skillsofts, knowsofts, tutorsofts, sensorsoft, tacnet etc. can't be pirated and don't need patching.

[Larme]

SOTA costs are just another way of saying "we have a big stiffie for magical characters, and mundanes can suck it." I'm happy with the hacker/techno balance the way it is, hackers have a lower cap on their abilities but they don't have to spend all their BP on hacking, so they can do more than one thing; TMs have to spend all their BP on technomancy, but will eventually surpass hackers. Hackers really don't need to be made worse to compensate anything... Degredation is simply simulationism, an attempt to pacify all the people who were furious about how streamlined the SR4 ruleset is.

[JeffSz]

Unwired is the only book I don't have yet (For some reason, my LGS got Ghost Cartels and Runner Havens for me long before Unwired...)

This SOTA cost thing scares me. I can't imaging trying to do all the book-keeping for a hacker's program subscriptions.

The "open source" optional rule sounds interesting, but am I correctly reading that Open Source programs are capped at rating 4? It's my experience that while some Open Source applications don't reach the featureset of their commercial counterparts, MOST such applications far surpass their commercial counterparts in functionality.

I would've just given my Hackers free software all along if their programs weren't so important and therefore worth as much build-point wise as spells and gear.


As to the OP: this Degredation rule can shove it. Monthly subscriptions suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I couldn't do that to my players.

[raggedhalo]

I can't imaging trying to do all the book-keeping for a hacker's program subscriptions.

So don't. Get the hacker to do it instead. It's their damn character.

And anyway, it's really not very complicated or time-consuming. Works fine in my group.

The "open source" optional rule sounds interesting, but am I correctly reading that Open Source programs are capped at rating 4?

Yes. 5s and 6s are the absolute top end of commercially-available programs anyway, which is the kind of thing you probably can't get Open Source IRL.

As to the OP: this Degredation rule can shove it. Monthly subscriptions suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I couldn't do that to my players.

The "monthly subscriptions" really aren't very much -- especially as you only have the "monthly subscriptions" for pirated software, which costs 10% of normal price anyway!

[hobgoblin]

im tempted to call "mountain out of a mole hill" on this whole topic...

[Warlordtheft]

im tempted to call "mountain out of a mole hill" on this whole topic...

Ditto: I don't bother with it as A:Any hacker worth his salt could upgrade the programs on their own via contacts, or self improvement, or b:assume that if they have a lifestyle above a certain point, it includes subscription services, and I would think that the Warez groups doing the pirating would offer patching services to their clients.

[paws2sky]

For me, the whole issue boil down to bookkeeping and the desire to not have to mess with it. Back in the day, SOTA was optional... and I really feel like it should have stayed that way.

You know... I really, really wish the Open Source rule wasn't listed as optional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

As it is, the group I was running didn't use Unwired anyway, so its a non-issue. For now.

The group I just joined (I finally get to play!) appears to be using everything, so I guess I'm going to have to deal with this eventually. I guess I need to ask of the GM is using Open Source or not.

-paws

[Rehlor]

Ditto: I don't bother with it as

It's surprisingly easy to say people are making too big a deal out of a thing when your response is to simply ignore it.

[JoelHalpern]

The only programs that degrade and/or can be bought as pirate software are Firewall, System/Pilot, Agents, Common Use programs and Hacking programs. Autosofts, skillsofts, knowsofts, tutorsofts, sensorsoft, tacnet etc. can't be pirated and don't need patching.

How did you come to that conclusion?
As far as I can tell, the rules as written apply to all forms of software.
As one example, on page 108/109 it talks about which software, when purchsed, has the Copy Protection and Registration options. (These are the things you need to break to create cracked software.) It lists explicitly agents, autosofts, and skillsofts.

What you suggest is not an unreasoanble house rule. Particularly with regard to skillsofts. But I don't see any way to claim it is what Unwired said.

Joel