Program Degradation, Why not to play hackers? Options

[Ryu]

"That is Unwired. You have the option to receive a 90% rebate on all your programs, at the cost of slightly higher lifestyle payments. We are looking at an income of 20k¥+ per month, so you could deal with that. Take a look at program options if you will. I´m allowing Open Source, so anything up to rating 4 is free."

=>Massive advantage for the hacker, who can now spend money on hacking implants, and the matrix is for everyone. At least one player will care, and that one can set the other players up - likely for a fee.

The book-keeping is mostly done outside the game anyway, and only requires adding a few numbers. If you do it while buying the program(s), there is really no problem. If that´s still too much hassle, buy an appropiate contact, that provides the patches as part of whatever deal you have.


As for matrix stuff taking ages, not really. How about simply placing a node with an appropiate device rating, and having it hacked? Like placing a guard, and having it shot?
The node might make do with a single attribute. The minimum detail is not "a rating 6 node with defined program load, alchemical passkey system, and active matrix security specialist." It´s more like "device rating 3, IC rating 4 overwatch from the security node". The hackers task is creativity, doing stuff without leaving traces. The challenge should not be in the rules, but in the moves you make.

[Larme]

@dexim: I was trying to argue in favor of GM fiat. GMs should fiat their asses off, as long as their goal is to make a fun game. Rules should never impede the GM from creating a fun and interesting story. If a player says "the rules as written prevent you from building excitement by having the bad guys do some stuff," I'm picking up my GM screen and going home. If the players think that their job is to defeat everything I try to do as the GM using the rules, then the game is doomed and I'd rather just watch TV.

I hear you regarding one single player though. If there's one guy who only wants to powergame and not really play the game, it shouldn't be a problem to let him -- when the rest of the players are generally on board, the powergamer usually just gets swept along with the plot until the action starts, in which case everyone's pretty glad he's around. Of course, you're playing with fire by having that kind of player, because if he gets bored he might decide to kill the other players on some flimsy pretense or other.

The way I'd deal with that kind of player is to calmly but firmly explain my role as the GM. I wouldn't fart around with rules lawyering, my time is too valuable for that. I would tell him "I'm trying to make sure everyone has fun with an exciting game. If you want the game to be boring and predictable, and you're going to try use the rules to make sure that happens, you're not welcome here."

[Cadmus]

I do have to disagree on some points, With the rules for program ratings degrading, more so when you play in games such as Missions that are rules as writen and have a tech heavy team it can be a monster, I did a rigger with a number of drones, talk about a monster of book keeping, Plus skill wires in a number of team members pluse comlinks with systems and firewalls ect.


Now granted there is a way to tweak some gear and have it auto patch but it takes a ton to get it started and you basiclyhave a server room in your doss, hehe, Honestly I don't really like the rules for it all in all.

And think about it, what runner who owns a comlink dosn't at least have encrypt and decrypt? scan and stealth? These arn't just hacker programs there smart, and if your runner dosn't have basic know how with something ont he comlink why is he not using a payphone? (do they have those still?)

Think of it like this, in rl who here uses there pc online with out a virus scan or malware/spyware program running?

and if you do I have very reasonable rates for helping you with your system *winks*

[Ryu]

If by "server room" you mean to say "an agent running on your commlink", then yes, that will come in handy for locating warez VPNs. Any browse rating can handle the follow-up datasearches within minutes, no need to actually roll the dice (standard task, not a threatening situation=buy hits).

I freely admit that the Open Source optional rule is severely reducing our book-keeping, and that Missions games will quite likely need more veracity than our games. I don´t even want to check my friends for "unRAWful enrichment", and they can indeed just use an appropiate contact to get some free lunch.

[KCKitsune]

And think about it, what runner who owns a comlink dosn't at least have encrypt and decrypt? scan and stealth? These arn't just hacker programs there smart, and if your runner dosn't have basic know how with something ont he comlink why is he not using a payphone? (do they have those still?)

Think of it like this, in rl who here uses there pc online with out a virus scan or malware/spyware program running?

and if you do I have very reasonable rates for helping you with your system *winks*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) , I know having Encrypt is a Good Thing™, but you only need Decrypt, Scan, & Stealth if you're a hacker. They only help when you're breaking into a system.

Now I've got a question about data trail: Why is your system sending out that information when pinged? I know that when someone tries to ping my Router they get no packets returned. Why would any of your programs send out ANY data... especially the firewall and Encrypt program? I mean that's just asking for it.

[Announcers voice] Yes ladies and gentlemen, Uberman Firewall not only protects you, but it lets those Evil Technomancers and Hackers know that you mean Business! [/Announcers voice]

Later on it's found out that Uberman has a critical flaw, and every freaking hacker can know EXACTLY how to bypass your defenses without having to try to any other exploit and therefore possibly raising an alarm.

[Ryu]

Your system does not send out that information, but your datatrail is traced. From the knowledge of how to route traffic to you follows the knowledge needed to triangulate your position. A 600¥-program is not "Ping".

[hobgoblin]

iirc, only programs used to access data on a node leave behind info in the nodes log.

kinda like how if a web browser accesses a page, it id's itself to tell the server what to send over, and at the same time what address to send it all to.

only that in SR a registered program will also id who its registered to (or at least give enough info so that the registered user can be looked up), and the comlink will pass over a accessid, one thats preferably tied to a SIN.

and this is all probably presented as a benefit by the corps, so that they and GOD can use the data to avoid a crash 2.0 like event.

btw, if a hacker takes time to erase info from the log, i would say he is more or less a ghost in the node, as long as the accessid is spoofed or the attack is done via a proxy. just make sure your using a cracked or open source edit program (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JFixer]

Ryu, do you have a full workup for your Matrix Response Rules thingy?

Matrix Combat (Program, Program, Program, etc)
Hacking (Program, Program, Program, etc)
Rigging (Program, Program, Program, etc)
Privacy (Program, Program, Program, etc)
----------
IC (Program, Program, Program, etc)

So what programs go in each of these slots, and can you give me a brief infiltration/data-steal to show me how to use it? Looks like this might be a brilliant way to simplify and fix hacking...

[Malachi]

There are also players who think that the goal of the game is to "win" by beating the GM's NPCs, a la Dungeons and Dragons. If you have those kinds of players, you'd better stick to the rules by the letter. But IMO, if that's the gaming situation you have, D&D 4e is your game. Everything is pre-programmed, and everything is totally fair as long as you follow the rules, not much fiat required. But Shadowrun is not a game of quests and dungeon crawls, it simulates a living, breathing world which moves at a super-modern fast pace. Things escalate in ways that would be impossible in D&D, and for this reason it's impossible to have a fair relationship between the players and GM. Even if you follow every rule, the GM can always win, so adversarial playing is a complete waste of time. You have to start off, from the beginning, realizing that the bad stuff that happens to the players is an obstacle to overcome which is supposed to create fun, not a vessel for the GM's sadism. If people can't get past that, then I think they're in the wrong game.

I have said it before and I will continue saying it: the root of all problems in RPGs is a mentality of "opposition" between the PCs and the GM. The PCs need to trust that the GM is going to challenge them without overwhelming them, and has the best interest of "fun for all" at heart. The instant players start to think about "winning" and "beating" the GM and the GM starts to design things to "defeat" the PCs, fun goes downhill dramatically.

I've had a couple of players in my day that tried to create a build that they perceived would be immune from harm (invisible, sniping mage). When I would point out ways in which their character was, indeed, vulnerable they would begin to argue with me. At that point its time to close up the rulebooks and have a talk with the player, explaining the roles of player and GM (like you said, Larme). Trust between both parties is the key component in this relationship.

[Ryu]

Sorry, but I wouldn´t have such a writeup. I much prefer using Unwired with optional spice nowadays.

If you want to work that approach out, you should open a new thread for it. The basic idea would have been to use the "logical" category for determining dicepools, no matter what program is behind it. Matrix Combat+skill against matrix combat+skill, rigging+skill for drones, etc. A more detailed device rating if you want to call it that. I honestly believe that learning to apply Unwired as you want takes less effort, but I would help you along with either.

[Malachi]

There are also players who think that the goal of the game is to "win" by beating the GM's NPCs, a la Dungeons and Dragons. If you have those kinds of players, you'd better stick to the rules by the letter. But IMO, if that's the gaming situation you have, D&D 4e is your game. Everything is pre-programmed, and everything is totally fair as long as you follow the rules, not much fiat required. But Shadowrun is not a game of quests and dungeon crawls, it simulates a living, breathing world which moves at a super-modern fast pace. Things escalate in ways that would be impossible in D&D, and for this reason it's impossible to have a fair relationship between the players and GM. Even if you follow every rule, the GM can always win, so adversarial playing is a complete waste of time. You have to start off, from the beginning, realizing that the bad stuff that happens to the players is an obstacle to overcome which is supposed to create fun, not a vessel for the GM's sadism. If people can't get past that, then I think they're in the wrong game.

I have said it before and I will continue saying it: the root of all problems in RPGs is a mentality of "opposition" between the PCs and the GM. The PCs need to trust that the GM is going to challenge them without overwhelming them, and has the best interest of "fun for all" at heart. The instant players start to think about "winning" and "beating" the GM and the GM starts to design things to "defeat" the PCs, fun goes downhill dramatically.

I've had a couple of players in my day that tried to create a build that they perceived would be immune from harm (invisible, sniping mage). When I would point out ways in which their character was, indeed, vulnerable they would begin to argue with me. At that point its time to close up the rulebooks and have a talk with the player, explaining the roles of player and GM (like you said, Larme). Trust between both parties is the key component in this relationship.

[Larme]

I've heard of a double post, and a triple post, but 11? I had to look that one up! FYI, it would be a "hendeca post"

[hobgoblin]

heh, seems there was a database issue or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ryu]

I set a record for multiposting or something. Terribly sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hobgoblin]

your not the only one, i have 3 posts at the end of another thread, but the funniest thing is that someone else is listed as last poster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[pbangarth]

I set a record for multiposting or something. Terribly sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I matched it in the "Curving a bullet" thread. We were posting at roughly the same time.

[pbangarth]

Because that's a distraction from the plot, it has nothing to do with anything, it's just simulationist, techno-fetishist masturbation.

Larme, I love it!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)