I'm Confused About Stats Options

[BlueMax]

Yeah, as you can see from my post, I'm guilty too. But SO very true, such is life at Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Or any conversation, or so has been my experience.

[Hartbaine]

Hey, we might not come up with an answer right away... but we'll have a hell of a good time time getting there.

[The Jake]

I remember back in the glory days of SR1 when the only limit on strength was the nuyen on your credstick for your cyberlimbs.

We had troll street samurai's running around with strength augmentation in the (very high) double digit range, routinely flipping cars over to provide cover for the team.

Of course, I was like 15 when I was GMing this....

Oh the shame... the shame....

- J.

[BlueMax]

I remember back in the glory days of SR1 when the only limit on strength was the nuyen on your credstick for your cyberlimbs.

We had troll street samurai's running around with strength augmentation in the (very high) double digit range, routinely flipping cars over to provide cover for the team.

Of course, I was like 15 when I was GMing this....

Oh the shame... the shame....

- J.

No shame to me. I was 15 and our troll had something like 18 body to resist damage. Now, thats after armor. And let me tell those who don't know, armor in 1st ed could be tough.

[JFixer]

Not really, as being an elf with social skillgroup 1 cost the same as being a human with social skillgroup 3 and i think that is an absolut minimum for any character, most should have more.

You do know that this means 'The absolute minimum for every character should be college courses in discourse, negotiation, philosophy, psychology, and hyperbole', right? And most should be.. doctorate level social workers and social scientists?

Check out P108 in the BBB. Most everyone you know has Rating 0 in just about every skill there is. If the car in front of you suddenly exploded, odds are you would drive into the fiery deathtrap in a state of shock. If someone stepped out of the dark and swung a bat at your head, odds are you would get beaned and be unconcious. I was a /world competitor/ martial artist... I have an unarmed combat of... like... two. Doctors have First Aid and Medicine of 3. Mr. J's get a Negotiation of 4 because they're paid 300k Nuyen a year to deal with semi-psychotic illegal criminals in dangerous situations discussing hundreds of thousands of nuyen worth of cash prizes several times a month. The book lists Nicolai Tesla as the R7 Technical example. Did you know Tesla invented /wireless abundant electricity capable of powering devices for several kilometers around/ when people were still using gas to light their homes at night?

People with a 3 are professionals who make their living on that skill. Shadowrunners tend to be thugs, intellectuals, or introverted matrix jockies, who rely on Face-type characters or hired agents to handle their negotiations.

This has been a common problem in all of the 'dot system' games I've played, and is a perpetual pet peeve of mine.

[BlueMax]

What is a "dot system"? I honestly do not know.

[pbangarth]

What is a "dot system"? I honestly do not know.

I believe it refers to systems that have a range of values or 'pips' that can be filled in on the character sheet. Changeling, and I assume other White Wolf games, are like that. With the maximum number of empty little boxes or circles just sitting there, waiting to be filled in, the urge exists to spend the build points necessary fill them in, even if that doesn't make sense for the character.

[BlueMax]

I believe it refers to systems that have a range of values or 'pips' that can be filled in on the character sheet. Changeling, and I assume other White Wolf games, are like that. With the maximum number of empty little boxes or circles just sitting there, waiting to be filled in, the urge exists to spend the build points necessary fill them in, even if that doesn't make sense for the character.

This not only answers the question I asked but the design chosen for the 4th edition Quickstart character sheets.

They looked like pips and I had no idea why.

Thank you Peter.

[Muspellsheimr]

The book lists Nicolai Tesla as the R7 Technical example. Did you know Tesla invented /wireless abundant electricity capable of powering devices for several kilometers around/ when people were still using gas to light their homes at night?

Not to mention that even today noone knows how Tesla did half of his shit.

Tesla is easily one of the most intellegent men that has lived to date, & quite likely the most intellegent. I would rate him above Einstein, da Vinci, etc.

[Larme]

Um, I think half of Tesla's shit was made up, to make him look big. Like his so-called earthquake machine? Busted! The central tenet of science is that if an experiment cannot be replicated, that does not make the original experimenter a genius, it makes him a purveyor of bullshit. There are plenty of great minds who dwarfed Tesla, notably because many of them made monumental advances in more than just one field, while Telsa confined his advances to electrical engineering (with many of them never really seeing the light of day, assuming they ever worked in the first place).

[BlueMax]

Um, I think half of Tesla's shit was made up, to make him look big. Like his so-called earthquake machine? Busted! The central tenet of science is that if an experiment cannot be replicated, that does not make the original experimenter a genius, it makes him a purveyor of bullshit. There are plenty of great minds who dwarfed Tesla, notably because many of them made monumental advances in more than just one field, while Telsa confined his advances to electrical engineering (with many of them never really seeing the light of day, assuming they ever worked in the first place).

About those advances in electrical engineering, or some would say physics, you should get the tomes of his patents. These were granted back when they would test an application before handing out the patent.

During both my undergraduate and graduate work in physics it became clear that some of the best scientific thought is hidden, abused and even destroyed, simply because its not popular. The brightest Geophysicist alive today is hated simply because he believes in catastrophic change and not the Uniformitarianism which is the defacto religion amongst the "modern scientific culture". Learning that and having a wife who is a giant Tesla believer brought me further into his camp.


Still, I think skill levels are bogus to chart. The scale should be total dice thrown. If 8 dice is pretty damn slick, what is 30 from the more munchkin characters?

[Warlordtheft]

No shame to me. I was 15 and our troll had something like 18 body to resist damage. Now, thats after armor. And let me tell those who don't know, armor in 1st ed could be tough.

Yeah, but resisting damage up or down for some weapons was almost impossible. 12M8 for the MP laser system!!!

[Larme]

Still, I think skill levels are bogus to chart. The scale should be total dice thrown. If 8 dice is pretty damn slick, what is 30 from the more munchkin characters?

...Jesus?

Oh wait, that was rhetorical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Anyway, I'm not saying Tesla wasn't a genius of electrical engineering. He just wasn't the smartest man who ever lived. Nor was he 100% honest.

[Mäx]

You do know that this means 'The absolute minimum for every character should be college courses in discourse, negotiation, philosophy, psychology, and hyperbole', right? And most should be.. doctorate level social workers and social scientists?

Or have more than 1 point of Charisma, at least if they expect to stay alive in the shadows.

[hobgoblin]

ok, some of this is taking the shape of a mmorpg forum thread debating how to squeeze out a 0.1 increase in DPS (damage pr second).

btw, who cares about body increases? with the way the SR4 damage system is shaped, getting high armor and as high a willpower as possible is key. why? because armor converts damage to stun, and the stun track is based off willpower...

that is, unless one walk around in military armor 24/7. and what was the statement from NPC's in fallout when you showed up in power armor again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ludomastro]

Not to mention that even today noone knows how Tesla did half of his shit.

Tesla is easily one of the most intellegent men that has lived to date, & quite likely the most intellegent. I would rate him above Einstein, da Vinci, etc.

It's easy. Telsa lived in London in the late 1800's, injected himself with vampire blood, and became - effectively - immortal and the only living vampire left. Not to mention he can sleep in an electric chair.

A dozen cookies to whoever gets the reference.

[Magus]

It's easy. Telsa lived in London in the late 1800's, injected himself with vampire blood, and became - effectively - immortal and the only living vampire left. Not to mention he can sleep in an electric chair.

A dozen cookies to whoever gets the reference.

Sanctuary

[ludomastro]

A baker's dozen of his favorite internet cookie to Magus.

[Rad]

Um, I think half of Tesla's shit was made up, to make him look big. Like his so-called earthquake machine? Busted! The central tenet of science is that if an experiment cannot be replicated, that does not make the original experimenter a genius, it makes him a purveyor of bullshit. There are plenty of great minds who dwarfed Tesla, notably because many of them made monumental advances in more than just one field, while Telsa confined his advances to electrical engineering (with many of them never really seeing the light of day, assuming they ever worked in the first place).

More accurately, the Mythbusters went out of their way to disprove that, sacrificing the integrity of the experiment in the process. In both the scale building and the suspension bridge, they used structures that could move freely to dissipate the vibrations. The original event supposedly happened in a steel-reinforced building, where the metal beams were anchored in brick and concrete. Considering they felt a noticeable vibration in the suspension bridge that far along it's length, and that such a bridge is designed to dissipate vibrations, (caused by the wind, vehicles moving across it, ect) I'd say they damn near proved that one.

As for recreating the original experiment, if they'd poured a foundation for their scale building and covered the beams to limit their sway, I suspect the results would have been very different.

[hobgoblin]

http://forum.mythbustersfanclub.com/index....pic,7130.0.html

have fun...

[Rad]

Yeah, I thought about posting it there...

...thing is, it seemed like they went out of their way to pooch the experiment--meaning they knew it could work but didn't want to tell that to a national TV audience. After all, they're not stupid. Maybe it's just the runner in me, but I'm not too keen on breezing over to their forums and yelling "conspiracy!"

I'm content to post such things on a forum like this--where somebody might be crazy enough to actually try it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

Although that NPC was apparently merely a mistake, humans can get higher Agility than 9 by canon. There is the excpetional Attribute quality, the metagenetic improvement (Attribute) SURGE quality, and the genetic optimization phenotype adjustment. Each of them raises the maximum for an Attribute by one, and all three of them are compatible with each other. So a human could, conceivably, have an Agility of 12.

arguably, such a person is no longer human, or at least a different metatype. So IMO 10 is the max for an exceptional human.

[Hagga]

arguably, such a person is no longer human, or at least a different metatype. So IMO 10 is the max for an exceptional human.

No, they could have an agility of 13. Or 14. Depends how you divide the 9.

Edit: wrong quote. What my quoted is quoting.

And to my original quoted:
Well, parts of Shaodwrun are sort of like Bladerunner - at what point are you really, really human and when are you something.. else? I know the Sammy in the rulebook as .85, but to me, at ess 3, you're right at the turning point of not being human. You might feel a bit funky, but youcan deal with it. Eventually you'll get used to it. Below that, you either need to come to terms with being something that is not human or go insane. Your implants have an effect, of course. Cyber is easier to deal with than bio. Sort of. At least you can tell what's human, what's not. At the extremes, that is far harder to do. Bio? Welllll.. you can't really pick out as easy what is and isn't you. You're still flesh, so at the extremes it's easier than cyber. But still - you're tougher, faster and stronger than any ordinary human and you don't even have plates of metal to show for it. Maybe you can come to terms with it, tell yourself you're still human, just a bit different. Maybe you can come to terms with being something that isn't. You can still relate. Maybe you can't - they're not like you, after all. They aren't quicksilver. Everything moves in slow motion. Or bullets bounce off your skin. Things don't hurt as much - why don't they? Why can't a regular human take a baseball bat to the skull and laugh? Maybe you'll just go bonkers.

That's just me, of course.

[Rad]

Why can't a regular human take a baseball bat to the skull and laugh? Maybe you'll just go bonkers.

Um, because they don't have dermal plating?

This existentialism is very romantic and all, but guys who carve other guys up for a living aren't likely to dwell on it too much. The study of combat often leads to a very practical mindset, and is dehumanizing in it's own way.

"It is best for sammies to be philosophical, but not too philosophical, for the philosophical sammies develop cyberpsychosis."

A cookie to whoever get's the reference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Hagga]

Less existentialism and more a direct cut from some transhumanist crap my roommate has, actually, with shadowrun bits spliced in. And it's fairly splashed around in fluff that they do dwell on it.