Technomancers & Rigging, Questions regarding control rigs & drones mostly Options

[Untamed Soul]

I wouldn't see why not but I just wanted to double check as Technomancers have a tendency to confuse me on some of the ruling.

Any reasons why a Technomancer can't operate like a rigger does? Meaning, can they "jump-in" to a drone just like a rigger? Also, does a drone have to be equipped with a control rig for a technomancer/rigger to control the drone in full VR immersion?

The way I've read it is that it adds bonus dice & makes it easier for the rigger to access the drone but is not always necessary. Any help provided on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Dashifen]

(1) Nope; no reason a TM can't jump-in and rig as long as the targeted vehicle/drone can be rigged.
(2) Vehicles/Drones don't got a control rig. That's a piece of Cyberware. Vehicles/Drones get the "Rigger Adaption" mod. Once they've been modified to allow riggers to jump-in and control them, though, your TM is set. In Unwired, there is an Echo for TMs that allows them to control devices without a the rigger adaption mod, but that's a special case and only for Submerged TMs.

[raggedhalo]

Anyone using VR can jump into a drone. A Control Rig just gives you extra dice when you do.

The vehicle/drone must be equipped with Rigger Adaptation in order for a technomancer, hacker or rigger to do this.

[Untamed Soul]

Thanks so much, I figured this was the way it was but it's always good to have the confirmation.

[Ustio]

Just remember that TMs are much better off using Remote control rather than "jumping in" as their Dicepool is likely to be much higher and you can still use hot Sim RC the only thing you'll lose is the dump shock (yay!) and the -1 threshold (boo!)

Just remember to thread Command up a bit when you dive in (its about the only program you'll be using whilst using RC - dont worry about the -2 Sustaining penalty as it only apples to actions that dont use Command (which wont be very much)

[Malachi]

The downside to running in Remote Control mode is that everything is a Complex action. Tell the drone to move over there, even if its less than his Walking rate? Complex action. Fire a Single Shot or Semi-Automatic weapon? Complex action.

When "Jumped-in" the vehicle and Rigger are considered "one" and act accordingly. That means a vehicle moving at Walking rate is no test, and Running rate is Free. Firing a weapon is still a Complex action (I believe) but I'd like clarification on that.

[Graushwein]

The downside to running in Remote Control mode is that everything is a Complex action. Tell the drone to move over there, even if its less than his Walking rate? Complex action. Fire a Single Shot or Semi-Automatic weapon? Complex action.

When "Jumped-in" the vehicle and Rigger are considered "one" and act accordingly. That means a vehicle moving at Walking rate is no test, and Running rate is Free. Firing a weapon is still a Complex action (I believe) but I'd like clarification on that.

I want to be more specific on Malachi's first statement about commanding a drone. Directly commanding a drone is a complex action. Firing a weapon on a drone is a complex action and walking is a free action. This means that you must spend a complex action to be commanding the drone but in doing that action you can do multple things like both tell it to move and fire the gun. It is like you are in a first person shooter game for that complex action, which is controlling the drone.

What I would normally do is start out the combat by using the command program (Simple action) to issue drones orders for them to carryout. "Move to these positions and engage these hostile targets." Then I have a simple action left and my drones act on thier own initiative. Meaning they can move and fire. Then on the next turn if I want to give some extra OOMPH I use the command complex action to move one drone and fire it's weapon. The rest of the drones follow the last given orders.

[Malachi]

That's not exactly how I play it Graushwein. Remember there are two distinct methods of drone operation when not "jumped in:" Autonomous, and Remote Control.

Your first reference, to using a Simple Action and the Drones acting on their initiative, is when the Drones are in Autonomous mode. You may give them a "list" of instructions (only 1 drone at a time, or identical commands to multiple drones) using a Simple, and then the Drone attempts to carry them out using its own actions and its own Initiative. This is the detailed under Issuing Commands, BBB pg. 221. The Drone uses its Pilot rating as its Attribute for all tests, and the appropriate Autosoft for its skill (Targeting, Clearsight, etc.).

Now, if you want to take on more "hands on" control of drone you may control it via Remote Control. In this case you have "overridden" the Drone's Pilot program and are controlling the Drone very much like an RC car. In this mode, the Drone is very much like it is "you" except that to get it to do anything you must control it via the Controlling Devices action as on BBB, pg. 220. In this mode, you use your skill to make a test, and the Command program/complex form in place of your Attribute.

The chart in Unwired pg. 105 really cleared up the whole "three modes" thing for me. Check it out.

EDIT: Additionally, (I'm not sure if this is really RAW but its the way I play it) a drone that has already acted on its Initiative in Autonomous mode cannot act again via Remote Control or by the Rigger Jumping in. All a Rigger can do with a Drone that has already acted Autonomously this Pass is to: 1) Issue it a new set of Commands, or 2) Using a Free Action to switch it "off" of Autonomous mode; it will then hold its action until the Rigger's Initiative and wait for orders.

[Lyonheart]

There are really three ways to run a Drone, I will sum up.

1) Full VR, your drone does it's job really well, but you can only use one at a time. I don't like this, others do.
2) Remote control, every thing is a complex action, very suboptimal
3) Pilot control (this is Shadowrun the RTS), you issue commands, which is still a complex action, but you let the drone carry them out on it's own initiative. Drones can be grouped, and you should do it from AR so you can watch your body too. If VRing one Doberman over there to shoot the baddies is good sending three is priceless. Scripting is fun, why use actions to tell your drone who to shoot, give it a "Go Hot" command and have it shoot everyone without a IFF. Rigging is about management not personal control.

[Malachi]

3) Pilot control (this is Shadowrun the RTS), you issue commands, which is still a complex action, ...

I still think issuing commands for a Drone to follow Autonomously is a Simple Action.

Issuing Commands
While online, you can issue commands to an agent (p. 227),
drone (p. 238), sprite (p. 234), or other device under your control
with a Simple Action. Note that you can issue the same command
to multiple agents, drones, or sprites at once with the same
action; different commands, however, require separate actions.

[Octopiii]

There are really three ways to run a Drone, I will sum up.

1) Full VR, your drone does it's job really well, but you can only use one at a time. I don't like this, others do.
2) Remote control, every thing is a complex action, very suboptimal
3) Pilot control (this is Shadowrun the RTS), you issue commands, which is still a complex action, but you let the drone carry them out on it's own initiative. Drones can be grouped, and you should do it from AR so you can watch your body too. If VRing one Doberman over there to shoot the baddies is good sending three is priceless. Scripting is fun, why use actions to tell your drone who to shoot, give it a "Go Hot" command and have it shoot everyone without a IFF. Rigging is about management not personal control.

Problem being that Pilot controlled drones have crap dice pools. Sensors 3 + Targeting 3? 6 dice! Garbage. Once you figure in range, cover, and visibility penalties, your drone is more likely to glitch than to hit. Pilot controlled drones are basically useful only for a full auto wide burst or suppressive fire. I'd consider using pilot controlled drones with a merc-type character, but then, he wouldn't really be a rigger, just a tricked out street sam with extra back up.

Now compare a rigger fitted out to jump in: Gunnery 6 +2 (LMG spec) + Sensors 3 + Hot Sim bonus 2 + Control Rig 2 = 15 dice; Fire your LMG with a simple action short wide burst (-2 die to defenders dodge pool) then follow up with a simple action long narrow burst (-1 to defender dodge for previous defense, - any wound penalties, +5dv for burst) and laugh.

RC being everything complex doesn't compare with the two shots an initiative pass a jumped in rigger can muster: it's simply the difference between three attacks and six. There's a reason that Jumped in riggers via hot sim suffer attenuated damage; of course if you're willing to forgo the + 2 Hot Sim bonus, you can jump in via cold sim and not have to worry about feedback.

I'm not sure why people think firing a weapon while jumped in is a complex action. Firing a weapon from a vehicle -physically- is a complex action, but it says nothing about that vis-a-vis a jumped in rigger from what I can see.

[gtjormungand]

I'm not sure why people think firing a weapon while jumped in is a complex action. Firing a weapon from a vehicle -physically- is a complex action, but it says nothing about that vis-a-vis a jumped in rigger from what I can see.

BBB pg. 239, under "Fire a Weapon System (Complex)" as a Rigger action.

[Adarael]

Question for Dashifen or anyone else with a better understanding of the rules:

Anything with a pilot rating can be ordered around like a drone, as far as I understand it. Does the statement "Vehicles/Drones get the "Rigger Adaption" mod. Once they've been modified to allow riggers to jump-in and control them, though, your TM is set" mean that Unwired clarifies that Rigger Adaptation is a separate mod that allows VR control? I.E. you can order vehicles around like drones if they have a Pilot rating (as all of them do) but you can't 'jump in' without that mod?

I really oughta get Unwired.

[DireRadiant]

To "Jump In" the vehicle/drone must be rigger adapted. Drones come with this automatically.

[Dashifen]

What he said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In SR4 the Rigger Adaption is listed on p. 341. Arsenal enhances that information on p. 142 but leaves the states roughly the same.

[Tyro]

Or you can just order a Machine sprite to inhabit the drone and get the best of both world (an autonomous drone with a good dicepool) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Jaid]

Or you can just order a Machine sprite to inhabit the drone and get the best of both world (an autonomous drone with a good dicepool) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

have you ever actually tried this? it sounds good in theory, but the simple fact is that even a rating 6 sprite is only going to have 2 autosofts. good dicepools? you've got maybe a maneuver and a targeting autosoft. sure, it's throwing 12 dice in both of those tasks, but how many is it throwing in defense? sensor tests? and so on.

a drone with response 4, pilot 4 can run 4 autosofts at rating 4. so sure, it may not be as awesome, but it's still throwing 10 dice on offense (instead of 14... in both cases, add in a smartgun modifier) and, 8 dice on maneuvering (as compared to 12), plus it has more dice in sensor tests and full defense tests. bump the response (or just use the right program option) and pilot program up to 6 and you're only 2 dice behind in 2 categories and you're 2 more dice ahead in the other categories, not to mention you can throw in a couple more autosofts (for example, you can have an ares alpha as your main gun and give it both heavy and assault rifle targeting autosofts, plus throw in an electronic warfare autosoft, or run ECCM, etc)

really, i would carefully consider before giving a sprite control of an entire vehicle. now if your GM rules that you can multiple entities rigging the same vehicle, that's different (for example, if you have a turret mounted LMG on a vehicle and the GM rules that one sprite can control the vehicle while the other one is a gunner... which is a perfectly reasonable ruling, imo). in such a case, i could certainly see a pair of rating 6 registered machine sprites being in charge of a vehicle. though of course, that means you're going to have a pretty firm limit on how many drones you can have. it's also worth noting that machine sprites come with a free command program built-in, so don't worry too much about rigger adaptation if this is your plan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[edit] oh, and all that is required for evil to triumph is for good [people] to be doing something else. [/edit]

[GreyBrother]

The magic word here is: Diagnostic

[Cain]

Sprites also have Edge, something an ordinary drone doesn't. Additionally, I'm not sure if a Machine Sprite gets to use the drone's existing autosofts or not.

[GreyBrother]

I think the Sprite can't even use an Autosoft. Don't Machine Sprites have Skills for Piloting Vehicles, Gunnery and Stuff?
If not, i shut up.

[Malachi]

(instead of 14... in both cases, add in a smartgun modifier)

I don't give the Smartgun bonus to a Drone's Pilot program.

[Ryu]

Sprites are beings of Resonance and have Complex Forms, not Autosofts. They are best used to control a drone by Giving Orders to the mundane Autopilot - they are smarter-, maybe enhancing important tests with Diagnostics (as GreyBrother said).

[GreyBrother]

I correct myself here. They don't have skills for piloting and stuff, they only have their CFs which i guess they can be used by drones.

But i stand with Ryu here. A machine sprite is a great commander for drones and dronegroups.

[JFixer]

Is it fully possible to play a hack-less TM, with no complex forms, and rely fully on Sprites, and just shepherd them along in the Matrix?

[GreyBrother]

Yes.