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> Curving a bullet or I wanna be like the guy in Wanted
awolfromlife
post Jan 22 2009, 05:52 PM
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So if a gunslinger adept had Hightened Concentration, Metamagic Adept Centering, and Metamagic, and Attunment Item. Could he curve a bullet like the guy in Wanted?
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Hartbaine
post Jan 22 2009, 05:57 PM
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Scientifically it's possible without magic.

While there is no rule system to detail how, it is actually possible in a RLS.
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pbangarth
post Jan 22 2009, 05:59 PM
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Well, it -could- be done without magic, but placing that black hole just right might be a little difficult.

Peter
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Kanada Ten
post Jan 22 2009, 06:05 PM
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Don't the rules for partial cover and such cover such scenarios currently? For all we know, everybody in SR is already out there curving bullets left and right, as it were.
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pbangarth
post Jan 22 2009, 06:16 PM
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I would think cover controls how much of a target is available to a straight-line bullet path.

Peter
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Leehouse
post Jan 22 2009, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Hartbaine @ Jan 22 2009, 01:57 PM) *
Scientifically it's possible without magic.

While there is no rule system to detail how, it is actually possible in a RLS.



... Is it physically possible for a human to curve a bullet? Everything I've seen on the matter has said "no", due to the limitations of the human body, though I'd be interested in seeing any scientific breakdown that says it is possible.
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InfinityzeN
post Jan 22 2009, 06:26 PM
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As Hartbaine said, it is scientifically possible (though totally uncontrollable in a field condition).

However, I think it would make a nice little bit of flavor for a gun adept. That or being able to bounce a bullet off a wall/floor/car/support beam/etc and hit a target. You could do it just using the cover and called shot rules, with the fancy bouncing or curving bullet being the "flavor text" in the discription of the action.

QUOTE (Leehouse @ Jan 22 2009, 01:23 PM) *
... Is it physically possible for a human to curve a bullet? Everything I've seen on the matter has said "no", due to the limitations of the human body, though I'd be interested in seeing any scientific breakdown that says it is possible.


Object in motion... remain in motion... etc.
The problem is that people can't really get the bullets to have enough motion before firing them that the curve will be more than a mm (ie: not noticable). The effect is more noticeable on high speed vehicles which fire low velocity rounds or a jet fighter using its guns in the middle of a very high speed turn. The individual bullets will actually curve in flight.

All of this is in addition to the fact that a bullet is always raising or falling in flight, getting shifted by the wind, etc.
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Fyndhal
post Jan 22 2009, 06:38 PM
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Curving the Bullet is fine and all, but I'd rather do it the old fashioned way.
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psychophipps
post Jan 22 2009, 09:59 PM
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People make bullet trajectories curve all the time, IRL. Just ask any Coroner. They'll have stories for you...
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The Jake
post Jan 22 2009, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 22 2009, 06:59 PM) *
Well, it -could- be done without magic, but placing that black hole just right might be a little difficult.

Peter


Rubbish! I have one right here, in my pocket....

- J.
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Maelstrome
post Jan 22 2009, 11:08 PM
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after some guy saw wanted he made a thread and rules for an adept power to curve bullets to negate cover modifiers. look deep and you may find it.
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IceKatze
post Jan 22 2009, 11:23 PM
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hi hi

If I'm not mistaken, all bullets curve. Some mumbo jumbo about parabola or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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kanislatrans
post Jan 22 2009, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jan 22 2009, 06:23 PM) *
hi hi

If I'm not mistaken, all bullets curve. Some mumbo jumbo about parabola or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Actually, a parabola wouldn't curve any more than a single bola. a paradox,however, can curve more than just one dox, but only if they quax. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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hyzmarca
post Jan 23 2009, 12:24 AM
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I'd go with seeker headed gyroject projectles , which have the advantage of being rockets with some potential thrust vectoring.

One can also use smart bullets that are equipped with guidance computers and control surfaces, but those are more likely in naval artillery than in pistols.
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Method
post Jan 23 2009, 12:29 AM
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"Wanted" was a worthless hunk of Hollywood turd and has no semblance of reality. I am currently playing with my old group which includes a variety of ex-military, current LEOs and general shooting enthusiasts. Anyone who wanted to curve a bullet in our game would get a stiff shot in the junk to the applause of all.

Now its perfectly valid to use "Ooooo its Maaaaagic!!" as an explanation in the SR universe, and thats all well and good. But please don't bother trying to justify curving bullets with real world physics. Yes you can dig into the minutia of ballistics theory and argue that "all bullets curve blah blah blah", but the REALITY is that any bullet that isn't fired from a very long range rifle or aircraft is only in flight for a fraction of a second and any curve that results will have a negligible effect on the actual point of impact. Ricochets not withstanding, curving a bullet around intervening objects or cover is simply not possible IRL.

{edit} And just to clarify, I'm not saying you or your idea are stupid. I am simply voicing my opinion of said movie and pointing out that any discussion of real world ballistics in this context is entirely irrelevant.
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crash2029
post Jan 23 2009, 12:34 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 22 2009, 07:24 PM) *
I'd go with seeker headed gyroject projectles , which have the advantage of being rockets with some potential thrust vectoring.

One can also use smart bullets that are equipped with guidance computers and control surfaces, but those are more likely in naval artillery than in pistols.


Didn't they do that in The Invisible Man?
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Critias
post Jan 23 2009, 12:37 AM
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Curving the bullet is ridiculous nonsense fantasy crap (that isn't even the same ridiculous fantasy crap that they used in the actual comic book Wanted claims to be based off of), and has no place in any sort of realistic setting.

That said? Many Shadowrun campaigns don't count, by a damn sight, as a "realistic setting." If you've got an Adept that wants to toss on a bunch of magical modifiers to make himself a beast with firearms, and you want to describe -- for fluff only -- as "curving the bullet," as far as I care, knock yourself out.
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crash2029
post Jan 23 2009, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Method @ Jan 22 2009, 07:29 PM) *
"Wanted" was a worthless hunk of Hollywood turd and has no semblance of reality. I am currently playing with my old group which includes a variety of ex-military, current LEOs and general shooting enthusiasts. Anyone who wanted to curve a bullet in our game would get a stiff shot in the junk to the applause of all. Now its perfectly valid to use "Ooooo its Maaaaagic!!" as an explanation in the SR universe, and thats all well and good. But please don't bother trying to justify curving bullets with real world physics. Yes you can dig into the minutia of ballistics theory and argue that "all bullets curve blah blah blah", but the REALITY is that any bullet that isn't fired from a very long range rifle or aircraft is only in flight for a fraction of a second and any curve that results will have a negligible effect on the actual point of impact. Ricochets not withstanding, curving a bullet around intervening objects or cover is simply not possible IRL.


All well and good, but I think the debate over the bullet arc effect being possible is more about the theoretical Real World than the practical Real World. Alot of things that are impossible in the practical real world are quite possible in the theoretical real world. Case in point: Walking through walls. In the practical real world people do not walk through walls. However in the theoretical real world it is possible, after all solid matter is actually mostly empty space on the atomic level, therefore if ones atoms were to line up just so with those of the wall you could walk right through it. If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times, anything may be possible but not very probable. Or if you prefer, physics reality =/= practical reality.
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jago668
post Jan 23 2009, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jan 22 2009, 08:48 PM) *
All well and good, but I think the debate over the bullet arc effect being possible is more about the theoretical Real World than the practical Real World. Alot of things that are impossible in the practical real world are quite possible in the theoretical real world. Case in point: Walking through walls. In the practical real world people do not walk through walls. However in the theoretical real world it is possible, after all solid matter is actually mostly empty space on the atomic level, therefore if ones atoms were to line up just so with those of the wall you could walk right through it. If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times, anything may be possible but not very probable. Or if you prefer, physics reality =/= practical reality.


Watch that discovery show human wrecking ball or whatever it is called. One of the guys on there walks through a wall and metal stud. Though walk is not entireley accurate. Also the wall wasn't in the same condition after as it was before. However he did force his atoms through the walls atoms, so it might count. =)
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Method
post Jan 23 2009, 05:19 AM
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Your example of walking through walls (like the curving bullet) fails to take into account the phenomenal amount of energy required. By that logic, long-distance teleportation is possible simply by folding the time-space continuum; all one needs is a quanta of energy roughly comparable to our entire solar system exploding instantaneously. Unfortunately SR does not allow teleportation or time travel, so my String-theory Adept will never be legal at conventions... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Lots of things are possible theoretically. Cyberware, magic, dragons, a Native American Nation, immortal elves, suppression fire with a SA weapon... curving bullets. But when it comes to SR if you try to apply real world logic, reason or common sense to any of these things you're wasting your time and energy.

So my point stands. If you want curving bullets go nuts. But discussion of real world ballistics isn't going to add anything to this conversation because its pretty cut and dried- bullets do not curve to any appreciable degree.
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Ikirouta
post Jan 23 2009, 08:56 AM
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Doesn't every bullet "curve" in the end? I mean bullet trajectory is not exactly straight and the bullet starts dropping when it looses energy. So while bullets curve the curve is towards earth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anyone who took Wanted as a serious movie should have seen the trailer first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) It was typical over the top action flick and if it was an anime no one would have bothered to complain. Those curving bullets etc. were just cool effects and personally I think they would work pretty well as Shadowrun's gun adept ability.
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crash2029
post Jan 23 2009, 09:33 AM
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Maybe I was a little vague on my point regarding the realism of intentional bullet arc. My point is thus, there can be little doubt that the world can be grouped into scientific reality and the world as we percieve it. While the aforementioned fantastical elements may have a background in science they are far outside the bounds of percieved reality. As this pertains to the discussion I merely point out that a fantastical effect that is grounded very loosely in theoretical science sets a precedent for legitimacy in the fantasy world of Shadowrun.

In other words, realism doesn't mean a damn thing when no one can agree on what reality is. [/long winded rembling]
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Browncoatone
post Jan 23 2009, 11:30 AM
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I haven't seen Wanted so I may be speaking out of turn here, but I've been told by an old veteran that they used to shoot around corners with SMGs all the time back in WWII. According to this guy, and, no, I haven't seen it myself I only have this guy's word on it, they used to have an SMG they affectionately called a "Grease Gun" that they fitted with a curved barrel. Apparantly this curved barrel combined with the kind of ammunition they used allowed the GI's to fire the gun and have the bullets arc 45 deg. from the traditional line of fire allowing them to spray bullets around corners in dense urban battlefields to reduce the risk to themselves when fighting building to building.

Now-a-days the Israeli's make a little camera/gun mount that you can use to fire your pistol around corners without ever presenting yourself as a target (provided the enemy isn't capable of shooting through the wall) that rates about a 9.4 on my That's-Cool-A-Meter.

Now if you're wanting your adept to be capable of turning the bullet after it leaves the gun to hit targets behind cover there are two extremely munchiny ways of doing it that I'd accept as technically allowable within the laws of physics as I understand them:

1. Fire the bullets up into the air in an extreme arc (almost straight up) and let gravity slow, and then reverse their course to accelerate down into the target from above- sort of like artillery.

2. The cliche'd richochet off of the solid surface tactic seen in many many movies.

The probability of either of them working is about the same as winning the lotto every week for the rest of your life- but he's an adept right?
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awolfromlife
post Jan 23 2009, 10:23 PM
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Maybe I wasn't being very clear all I wanted to know was if by using those metamagic techniques and that adept power could a player possibly take the modifiers down to a do-able number to pull off a shot that could only be done by curving a bullet ( i.e. Target Hidden -6, called shot -4, attacker Firing from cover -1 etc.)
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hyzmarca
post Jan 23 2009, 10:29 PM
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If that's the flavor you want to go for, I guess.

Really though, it goes a little against the flavor of the adept, since he is supposed to be enhancing his own mind and body with his magic, rather than influencing things that are external to himself. Attunment probably has the closest natural flavor to what you're looking for.
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