melee combat from bikes, against people on foot Options

[Red-ROM]

so i'm new here, and new to sr4 (i played sr3 for years). so this is probably an old and easy question for most of you. If you have a ganger on a bike attaking your ninja phys ad who is currently on foot with a bat. what are the modifiers? what about running down a street sam with a car?

[kzt]

The ganger and the adept are both idiots and should both be killed by the collision. However the ganger is even more stupid, as a bike is really easy to screw up. Hitting the front wheel with a bat will do it nicely.

See page 160. Realize that at any decent speed it will likely kill everyone in the car too, per the wonder that is RAW.

[KarmaInferno]

I think he means the ganger on the bike has the bat, and is attempting a ride-by swing.





-karma

[hobgoblin]

See page 160. Realize that at any decent speed it will likely kill everyone in the car too, per the wonder that is RAW.

a issue that can be remedied by using the opposing sides body as the damage source rather then the ramming vehicles for both (even tho it halves for the ramming vehicle).

that is, if a car rams a pedestrian, the damage to the car would be based on the body of the pedestrian, modified by the speed of the car, as pr mentioned table.

[Stahlseele]

ever seen what happens to a car when it hits a deer or boar, maybe bear or even elk on the street with some speed?
yeah, both animal and most of the people inside the car die pretty gruesome deaths . .

[Red-ROM]

I was, in fact, refering to the ganger having the bat. Maybe my grammer needs some work. also, I was looking for melee combat/vehicle combat modifiers. +2 for superior position on bike? +2 charging attack? I'm guessing a vehicle handling test? I found the rules for ramming a person (thanks!). there is a -3 dice for ramming from running distance. would that apply to the guy on the bike if he's "running" in for an attack with the bat?

on a slight digression, can you use the "great leap" adept power to gain superior position? a jump kick if you will? if my ninja held an action to defend against the charging bike, could he leap 3 meters into the air and stomp this ganger?

[hobgoblin]

the problem there is that said animal will go up and in the windshield, no?

i dunno, the forces in work during a crash/ramming scenario is many, so boiling it all down to a single damage test for both parties is more likely then not to create oddities.

[JFixer]

The ganger is charging. (+2)
The ganger receives a further +2 for the mass/horsepower/strength of the bike.
He then recieves -2 for doing two things at once (in this case, attacking and steering)
The ganger must then immediately use his body, and only his body, to resist Stun damage equal to the Body of the attacked Adept because he is one-handed trying to nail a semi-stable 200#+ object while controlling a bike. Were he hitting, say, a tin mailbox, he would only be resisting one stun, which isn't so hard. Attacking a human that way a quick way to dislocate your shoulder.

IF the Adept were holding an action, and had great leap, YES.
+2 Superior Position, +1 Receiving a Charge, don't forget to check for Knockdown which takes the guy off his bike, and I'd give him an extra +2... for the Mass/Strength/Horsepower of the bike.

[hobgoblin]

there is a -3 dice for ramming from running distance. would that apply to the guy on the bike if he's "running" in for an attack with the bat?

its more like "moving at running speed" then target being at running distance from attacker.

or if im wrong, that table really becomes odd as one can then potentially select a speed from 1 to listed max speed of the vehicle.

bah, now that i look at it, the ramming rule are like a black sheep of the vehicle rules, as its the only rule that worries about the speed of the vehicle. its almost as if someone converted the SR3 ramming rules to SR4 at a early stage, and then didnt look at it again when deciding to drop the speed modifier from chase combat.

heh, now im tempted to apply the ramming rule to a troll running into a elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Red-ROM]

in the case of ramming, as long as your not going 200 miles an hour. the car will probably resist most of the damage.

60 meters/turn with mercury comet= 5p resisted with 16 dice= maybe 1 box if you don't roll too horribly

am i right?

[hobgoblin]

i think the issue is the part later on about passengers (that includes the driver) resist ramming damage unmodified...

that is, the rider of said mercury comet would have to resist 5P also, independent of what the vehicle itself ended up with.

[kzt]

in the case of ramming, as long as your not going 200 miles an hour. the car will probably resist most of the damage.

60 meters/turn with mercury comet= 5p resisted with 16 dice= maybe 1 box if you don't roll too horribly

am i right?

No. The people in the car ALWAYS have to roll to resist damage. Everyone in the car gets to resist 5p with 1/2 impact. Now if it was the much bigger and more heavily armored citymaster that hit the one guy everyone in the citymaster would have to resist 8p with half impact. But the citymaster would be pretty much fine other then the bloodstains inside it and on the bumper. It sure makes sense that you take so much less damage ramming a bridge abutment on a motorcycle than in a large car with crumple zones, seatbelts and airbags....

Pretty much everything about the vehicle rules shows a total lack of thought or testing. It just gets worse when you try to rig them. Just do what makes it work for your game and players.

[Beetle]

If you want a good idea of what would happen in the real world, dig around you tube. There are plenty of videos showing idiots hitting things from moving vehicles and breaking their arms.

[hobgoblin]

It sure makes sense that you take so much less damage ramming a bridge abutment on a motorcycle than in a large car with crumple zones, seatbelts and airbags....

iirc, there was a thread about that when SR4 was first released. i think the consensus was that it would depend on what happened to the driver of said motorcycle. if he was lucky he would be thrown clean and slide along the ground, but if he was unlucky he would hit something solid and come to a dead stop.

in the former he would get some nasty cuts and bruises, but depending on the clothes worn would be mostly ok, while in the latter he could potentially break every bone in his body.

in the end, its all kinds of moving things. hell, even airbags can kill if one sit wrong when it deploys (its inflated by what can be best described as a small explosion, after all).

[Red-ROM]

ok, page 162, in the case of ramming , it says both passengers and vehicle resist damage equally... what does that mean? i mean, in attack directly against the passengers, they get to add the vehicle's armor rating. i would imagine they at least get that when dealing with ramming. to resist equally sounds like they roll the same dice as the car...

[kzt]

No. They get to resist it directly. This make some sense, as one of the things that kills people in car accidents is their body internally being torn apart by the acceleration. Being in a giant steel box that comes to a sudden and complete stop doesn't stop your liver from being torn in half by the falciform ligament when your torso hits said steel box and suddenly stops, while your internal organs don't.

What IS obviously stupid is that you take more damage in a crash simply because you are in a large, well designed vehicle that can better protect you than if you were in a motorized skateboard for the same crash.

[Red-ROM]

when a car hits a person, it doesn't come to a sudden stop though

[kzt]

It doesn't matter according to RAW..... You still take the same damage and you still need to make the vehicle test regardless of what you hit.

[Lyonheart]

ever seen what happens to a car when it hits a deer or boar, maybe bear or even elk on the street with some speed?
yeah, both animal and most of the people inside the car die pretty gruesome deaths . .

I new a girl who referred to her Jeep a "Deerslayer" she'd hit like 5 with it, looked plenty alive to me.

[Stahlseele]

a jeep . . maybe . . what with the big ass front grill and bumpers and everything . .
but here's an extreme linked for . . yeah, it's a dead animal http://www.riverinesailor.com/images/Moose.Car2.jpg
now if you look real close, you will notice, that the head is hanging out of the back window, above the trunk . . and it entered through the windshield . . now draw an imaginary line from the windshield to above the trunk. that's the way this moose has traveled . . not guess where the people were inside the car . .

[hobgoblin]

and thats why its nearly impossible to boil down a vehicle incident into a couple of nice clean dice rolls...

i guess the closest would be a comet vs a horse, anyone up for the math?

[JoelHalpern]

a jeep . . maybe . . what with the big ass front grill and bumpers and everything . .
but here's an extreme linked for . . yeah, it's a dead animal http://www.riverinesailor.com/images/Moose.Car2.jpg
now if you look real close, you will notice, that the head is hanging out of the back window, above the trunk . . and it entered through the windshield . . now draw an imaginary line from the windshield to above the trunk. that's the way this moose has traveled . . not guess where the people were inside the car . .

It is important to keep track of the difference in animal size. Having lived in Minnesota, these differences matter. Generally, if you hit a deer with a car, unless it is a large male whose antlers come through the windshield, the driver will be fine, and the deer will be dead. The car may be anywhere from slightly damaged to totalled, depending upon the impact.
On the other hand, if a driver hits a moose you can generally cross the driver off. Moose are MUCH bigger than deer. They tend to stop the car MUCH faster. And on top of that, there antlers are bigger, tougher, and higher off the ground.
Elk tend to be somewhat in between (and much rarer.)

Yours,
Joel

[Stahlseele]

it really depends on the form of the car.
if the hood is high and there's a steep drop on the front where the plate goes, then it won't be too much of a problem . . imagine a jeep if you want. the animal would most likely just get stuck in the front grill . . now imagine a sports car . . nothing like a big burly bumper or grill . . for example, take a corvette . . if a corvette were to hit an animal of about deer size, the legs would be more or less broken at knee hight and the rump of the body would hit the hood . . from there on, rolling probably straight through the windshield into the driver at least . . taking shards and parts of the windshield with it on its way too . .

of course, we would have to take metahumanity into account too . .
if the ganger on the bike tried to hit a dwarf, he would probably swing over his head.
if he tried to hit a human, he would most likely to good damage.
if he tried to hit an elf, he would suddenly have two halves of broken elf hanging from his stick and dragging him down.
if he tried to hit an ork, he would probably do light to mediocre damage.
if he tried to hit a troll, he would probably find his arm being ripped out by the troll catching his stick and holding on tight.

[Red-ROM]

so I guess the best way to take out that big LoneStar swat truck is to throw a bycycle in front of it, killing all inside

[Stahlseele]

rules-wise?
probably, but to be sure, use a really fast sports car . .