Can you realy have +4 complex actions in rouns?, Iniative beeing +40 Options

[BlackSmith]

So character with iniative over 40 can fire assult rifle four times, thus spreding more than 72 rounds around, maybe 36 times more than the dude next to him having pointy hat.

our team talked about this after their characters where having (again) minimum iniative 30 and thinked that there must be something wrong the way we play this game.
isint just one complex or two standars per combat turns, not per pass, as it results high iniative charcters always out performe low iniative characters?

or how should GM handle player(s) with dicote no-dachis that make 15S damage, iniatives around ~35 and HV guns?

best of all, their all new characters.

[Lilt]

If they are all new characters then just send characters with the same level of abilities back at them, or send characters at them that they will probably be weaker against.

[Rev]

Be sure to enforce the recoil modifiers.

Give them some jobs where they have to be quiet or they won't be paid.

If they start a war someplace have helicopters and armored vehicles show up eventually.

[RedmondLarry]

You are absolutely right that characters can take many actions if they achieve a high initiative. That's exactly what happens.

Initiative 41 gives 5 actions, not 4. Each can be composed of one Complex Action or two Simple Actions.

Remember that dice Pools are limited and do not refresh till the next Initiative roll. Its easy to use up all your Combat Pool after one or two actions, and have nothing left for defense for the rest of the Combat Turn.

Also, movement is spread out over the initiative passes. So with 5 passes, characters only take one-fifth of their movement per pass. Characters who get no action on a pass may still take their movement at the end of the pass.

It is rare for a bunch of new characters to all be going at 30+. Almost all techniques that add initiative dice are incompatible with the other techniques that add initiative dice. Enforce Essence and Bioware limits.

The highly-cybered characters typically have penalties in social situations, so a team of all speed demons will often have troubles with parts of a run.

Make the players track ammo usage. Clips do become empty.

Recoil modifiers are no worse for high-initiative characters, as recoil is calculated for each phase separately. But yes, recoil provides a lot of trouble for the HV weapons.

[Fortune]

Be sure to use Target Number modifiers of all types. Vision, Cover, Movement, Recoil, Wounds, etc all can have a major impact on characters' effectiveness in combat.

[kevyn668]

Spirits. Lots of Spirits. :)

[Glyph]

High initiative has really been neutered, um, I mean balanced, in Third Edition. Remember, they get only one action before everyone else gets an action, rather than taking all of their actions at the start of the turn. And Shadowrun is a deadly game. It's not like D&D where you can wade through orks. If you shoot 5 out of 15 security guards, the remaining 10 can often turn you into swiss cheese with their counterattack.

So don't throw similarly elite characters at them all the time. You can challenge them simply by having greater numbers of the baddies - and have them use elementary tactics, like using cover and spreading out. Between cover and visibility modifiers, as well as recoil, HV weapons won't be that effective. And melee is a dice contest, so the damage code only matters if you can hit someone with it. Remember that it is entirely possible to attack someone and wind up taking damage.

[kevyn668]

Ya know, thats a good point, Glyph. The group I GM for quickly learned that 5 to 3 odds is not very good...

[toturi]

[DV8]

I agree with Toturi, when I was young GM...*cue voilins*...I used to have all NPCs fight to the death, which was not only irrealistic, but also foolish. A lot of PCs will disregard an NPC that's crawling on the floor, bleeding, looking for his arm that was just chopped off by an precise swipe with a dikoted katana. However, when the wounds aren't that severe, and there are multiple more targets all fresh and ready to kick the shit out of the PC, then that wounded NPC might still be a threat.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Initiative 41+ with Move-By-Wire-4, and you've got 7 actions.

The rate of fire shouldn't be a problem. At 5 actions per CT, going Full Automatic on every action, you still can't achieve more than a mediocre 1,000rpm cyclic RoF. M-B-W-4 might take it a bit far, with a 1,400rpm cylic RoF, but such a guy can do other completely insane stuff as well.

An enemy team with Rigger and Mage (with elementals or spirits) backup that outnumbers the PC team, acts professionally and has bot superior intel and decent gear can prove quite dangerous even against Init 30+ characters.

[Wireknight]

Drones are really a viable option if you want to play up the (relative) rarity of magic. While a character with an incredibly high initiative might be capable of out-reacting a combat drone or three, one with decent armor will be tremendously difficult to destroy, and likely equipped with a recoil-compensated weapon that'll turn even the most heavily armored cyborg into swiss cheese.

Make it a robot, give it autosofts, combat-linked Interpretation(I think that's the R3 name for Learning Pool) Pool, and the highest initiative possible, and a single drone could probably match, if not defeat, a character capable of pulling regular 40's on their initiative roll. Vehicle damage reduction and armor rules, 8 or 10 effective Reaction, 4d6 Initiative, and skill between 8 and 10 with their primary weapon, and a security or assassination robot can wipe the floor with pretty much any mundane PC. It's just hard to carry weapons that can harm a drone with, say, 6 points of armor.

Of course, if you hand out AV ammo, any decent marksman can pretty much walk all over a drone.

[BumsofTacoma]

My only question is, how did starting characters get a reaction of 30+?

Look I know it is possible, but man, unless you like power gaming, (in this case it sounds like you dont)

LIMIT LIMIT LIMIT, availabilty ratings are there for a reason.

Oh and MbW 4? what is that essence cost 7-8? and availibilty 30+ if you buy it in a version you can use without becoming a cyberzombie. Bah the cost alone errrrr!!!
Bogles the mind don't it :D

Anyway. All is fair in cyberware, if the compatibility fits you must .......I wont finish that never mind.

Basically, check your players on availabilty, essence cost, compatibilty of cyber/bio/adept powers etc.

If its all legal, ask em to tone it down a bit, if they wont. throw the same at them. People also create reputations as they go along. Npc's get wind that these guys were hired (or anyone was hired for that matter) they are going to send out the big guns.

besides, how many runs can they do if they draw that much attention to them selves? the only jobs they will get after a while is a merc job in bumf*%k middle of no where rainforrest full od awakened creatures.......or at least in my book thats what would happen. :D

[Traks]

Hell. I have limited my players to 2 simple attack actions or 1 complex per TURN.
So they do not want that high initiative that much. I know, I AM evil and proud of it

But yes, availability index is there, so your players have something that they want to get in game, not that they have everything. Just learn to say NO to their new toys.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Getting a Reaction of 30 is, for most intents and purposes, impossible. Getting average initiative that high isn't even too hard, if you have loads of cash. Because BlackSmith talked about 1200-karma characters in an earlier thread, I'm guessing money won't be a problem. So they all probably have Wired-3 + ReactionEnchancer-6 or Boosted-3 + Synaptic-2 + ReactionEnchancer-6. Add some drugs on top of that, and you'll be rolling 31+ constantly.

Wired-3 + RE-6 + Qui-8 + Int-8 + Supra + Artwink = 22 Reaction, 4d6 + 22 Init. Min 26, max 46, average 40. Add Cram and Jazz and you get 2 more Reaction, 2 more dice = 6d6 + 24, min 30, max 60, average 45.

Oops! I missed the point about them being new chars!

Well then, be sure to check compatibility (from M&M, and in SR3 too), Essence and Bio, side-effects, everything. Everyone getting 31+ inits with starting chars sounds a bit freaky... A full-speed streetsam can do it, but the rest shouldn't. Wired-3 + RE-2 + Supra + Artwink + Qui-8/Int-6 + Cram + Jazz = 6d6 + 19, min 25, max 55, average 40.

[BumsofTacoma]

Austere..............................................
..................................


you scare me......... :eek:

[sidekick]

wait....starting characters with HV? What sort of whack availability rules are you running with?

base 30 reaction..... I have to ask how? As Austere showed us, it's basically impossible to have a base 30 reaction as an experienced character, let alone a starting one.

But since your main question was how to deal with these monstrousities, not are they possible, here is a little advice.

Nodachi's are very big. IIRC they are like 6 feet long (we won't even get into how much it costs to dikote one). With that in mind, they are nearly impossible to use indoors. There just isn't enough room to use it effectively, it'll hit the walls and ceiling. Keep that in mind.

HV weapon's recoils generally ass rape the user. Even with it's 3 pts of internal compensations, the fact that it can't mount a barrel reciol supression (like out good friend Gas Vent Mark IV) means that after the first couple of shots, the weapon becomes to ungainly to hit anything.


----

Edit: a dikoted Nodachi doesn't do Serious, it does Deadly. (Dikote raises the damage level by one, and Nodachi normally do Serious).
BTW, on an evil GM sidenote. Those are some pretty fancy tows they have. The kind of fancy toys that someone else would pay good nuyen for (HVARs are notoriously rare). Additionally, they are pretty rare gear. The kind of gear that causes word on the street that you posses it. Just keep that in mind. An HVAR is a lovely weapon, but it doesn't do you a lot of good when the 3 punks break into your apartment at night and kill you while you sleep to steal it.

But, for god's sake, please check the numbers on those characters, they are crazy. Remember. 8 avail max, no beta or delta, only a 1 million nuyen to start, wired doesn't stack with boosted reflexes, neither stack with magical boosts, move-by-wire stacks with none. Of course, these are only the cannon rules, so it's all out the window if you play with house rules.

[Austere Emancipa...]

No-Dachis were/are not 6 feet long. That would've made them almost a foot longer than the people who wielded them. The No-Dachi in that link is 4' 8½" (149cm). The longest European-style 2-h swords were/are significantly longer than that, the one I linked to being 5' 3" (160cm).

Still, using one indoors is certainly more difficult than in open space.

[BlackSmith]

they are all legal charcters, nothing over 8 avail, everything fucking stacks that can be stacked, 123 points used.

If the GM says one yes for any whining, he sudenly has to handle with character that has SOTA edge and double HV SMG's that rolls 10 dice MINIMUM per hand, recoil beeing no problem thanks to wrist gyros and recoil compensations. last his character dropped four bursts per phase, called always in head and swinged dicote no-dach for fun.
OR you sudenlly have to deal with human that has no-dach that does ~23D and aptitude in martial arts rolling +10 dices. thank god the player dont like trolls.

i made a nice character and he rolls best 4 dice and thats in spellcasting and decking + pools. i realy like him but try to shine when other roll their secondary skills with sixs dice...

this was suposed to be new nonElite characters. rrriiight...
well it is a bit step back for me anyway. no more castign spells with 11 dices.
well its then spirit &/ drone gaming then...

[Tanka]

Remember, the final say is always with the GM. If he don't like it, it don't go. So the guy with an Aptitude in any sort of combat/magic/whatever his big time speciality is should not have that edge anyway. It even says GMs should probably not allow it.

Oh, and the SOTA Edge went out with SR2. It no longer exists in SR3.

[BlackSmith]

[Glyph]

The problem isn't that the players are good min-maxers; the problem only arises if the GM can't challenge them. And keep in mind that unlike D&D, starting shadowrunners are professional criminals who start out experienced (look at the Street Samurai or Street Mage Archetypes - these people have been doing it for awhile), unless the GM actually said he wanted "rookie" runners.

What's the problem with the characters? Is it that the GM can't challenge them, or that your character can't keep up? If it's the latter, then the problem might not be them. Shadowrun may lend itself to lots of roleplaying, but combat and other success tests come down to dice. If 6 is the maximum starting skill, I would generally assume that characters would take a skill at 6 in their chosen specialty. 4 dice for spellcasting after dice pools? Considering that spellcasting is resisted by the target? Even the basic book archetypes can sling 11+ dice - a spellslinger with foci and totem bonuses can do a lot better than that. I applaud you for making a non-min/maxed character, but that kind of character will get overshadowed in a game where everyone else is powergaming. And if everyone else is doing it one way, and you are doing it another way, then I'm afraid it may be you who needs to modify his playing style a bit.

If the problem is that the GM can't challenge them, then give him some of the good tactical advice that has been presented here. The GM has an incredible amount of stuff that he can toss at the players, from gangers to bioweapons to vampires, etc. If he has trouble challenging a starting group of players, even high-powered ones, then I assume it is probably just inexperience.

[BlackSmith]

[BlackSmith]

http://www.geocities.com/black_smith_fi/

there

[BitBasher]