Adept Powers, House Errata |
Adept Powers, House Errata |
Jan 27 2009, 07:19 AM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
I have said before that I would post a full listing of my suggested changes to Adept Powers, but for whatever reason, never got around to it. Finally, it is now here.
Please note that very little of this has actually received playtesting at the moment, & is subject to change once I actually get a chance to try it out. For now, it is based on my review of the powers, & what I think is necessary to make them playable, or reduce their effectiveness, as appropriate. The changes below should work well with no additional changes to the Rules as Written, but some are intended to work with additional house rules. The most prevalent of these are included below:
Input is welcome. Shadowrun 4 p.187 Critical Strike Change cost to “0.5 per level� p.187 Enhanced Perception Increase the cost to 0.5 per level p.187 Great Leap Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level to jump checks. p.187 Improved Ability Change cost to “0.25 per level� p.187 Improved Physical Attribute Change cost to “0.5 per level� p.188 Improved Reflexes Change cost to “1 per level (maximum 3)� p.188 Improved Sense Change the description to: p.188 Kinesics Add the following sentence to the end of the description: p.188 Missile Parry Change the description to: p.188 Natural Immunity Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level p.189 Pain Resistance Change the first paragraph to read: p.189 Rapid Healing Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level Street Magic p.174 Analytics Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level p.175 Animal Empathy Change the second sentence to read: p.175 Berserk Change the cost to 0.5 p.175 Blind Fighting Change the second sentence to read: p.175 Cloak Change the second sentence to read: p.176 Commanding Voice Remove Commanding Voice p.176 Cool Resolve Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level p.176 Counterstrike Change the cost to 0.5 p.176 Distance Strike Change the cost to 1 p.176 Empathic Healing Change the description to: p.177 Gliding Change cost to 0.25 p.177 Iron Gut Remove Iron Gut p.177 Iron Lungs Change cost to 0.25 p.177 Iron Will Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier p.178 Living Focus Change cost to 0.5 p.178 Multi-Tasking Change the last sentence to read: p.178 Nerve Strike Change cost to 0.5 p.179 Pain Relief Remove Pain Relief p.179 Penetrating Strike Change cost to 0.25 per level p.179 Power Throw Change cost to 0.5 per level p.179 Quick Draw Remove Quick Draw p.179 Rooting Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level p.179 Smashing Blow Change cost to 0.5 p.179 Temperature Tolerance Change the description to read: p.180 Traceless Walk Change cost to 0.5 p.180 Wall Running Change cost to 0.5 Digital Grimoire p.17 Elemental Resistance Change name to [Element] Resistance p.18 Memory Displacement Change cost to 0.5 p.18 Power Swim Change cost to 0.25 p.18 Indomitable Will Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier New Adept Powers Pathogen/Toxin Immunity Cost: 1 [Element] Immunity Cost: 1 |
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Jan 27 2009, 07:38 AM
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#2
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,681 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Muspellheimr, what do you mean by "Natural Magic"? Is this the Magic Rating -before- additions from Initiation, or -including- gains from Initiation?
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Jan 27 2009, 07:39 AM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
It is the Magic attribute before modifiers from Background Count, boosts from Essence Drain, or similar.
The limits on Initiation & Magic is a rule I have played with quite a bit, & (in my opinion) is vastly superior to the potentially limitless advancement allowed by the Rules as Written. A similar limit was also in place for Technomancers Submersion & Resonance. |
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Jan 27 2009, 01:11 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 1-January 09 Member No.: 16,727 |
Have you also re-jigged the Increase Reflexes spell to be +1 action per hit, Force of the Spell need only be 3, ever, and Drain Code a simple +1?
You've massively boosted initiative passes in this style, and that needs to be adressed. As it stands, people on the street can nearly afford to get two passes a round with cheap, easy cyberware. It's up to the point where you might want to consider putting it in the regular security package for every corp security outfit. |
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Jan 27 2009, 03:58 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Several of those are exact matches to the changes I've made. My biggest change is that all Adept powers were limited to a rating of 1/2 Magic (Round up). I also make the change that Improved Reflexes does not increase Reaction (it provides extra IPs only) and that Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) must be purchased to a level equal to or higher than Improved Reflexes (think of it as a corequisite).
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Jan 27 2009, 04:54 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
I could dig about all of these changes. I'm not too keen on limiting magic/initiation so much; it does cost a lot of karma to do so. (If someone has a 6 magic and wants to buy up to 9 in game, this is 21+24+27 Karma for the magic alone, or 72, and then 13+16+19 for the Initations, or 48, for a grand total of 120 Karma. That's...a lot, and it's at the expense of EVERYTHING else for about an entire year of gameplay.)
I'd have to consider limiting the powers so much in terms of how many levels. I can see the point and I don't mind it necessarily, but I haven't had the need to do it in my games, since it's rare that I see 6 levels of a full power. Even stuff like Critical Strike is taken around level 4. (I also do like my .25/level Critical Strike costs, but again, I guess I can see the merit of it being .5) I'd use most of these, I think, for sure. In fact, almost all of them. I really love the better Attribute improvements and the cheaper reflexes. |
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Jan 27 2009, 08:34 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
Have you also re-jigged the Increase Reflexes spell to be +1 action per hit, Force of the Spell need only be 3, ever, and Drain Code a simple +1? You've massively boosted initiative passes in this style, and that needs to be adressed. As it stands, people on the street can nearly afford to get two passes a round with cheap, easy cyberware. It's up to the point where you might want to consider putting it in the regular security package for every corp security outfit. Increase Reflexes [Spell] is being changed, but I am not yet certain exactly how (although I do have a good idea). Regardless, it is not necessary for these changes. Wired Reflexes is still far beyond what Average Joe can afford, & is a very common house rule. The 2 : 3 : 5 scale of Improved Reflexes makes it, while still usable, a very poor choice for Initiative Enhancement. By RaW, I typically cringe when I feel I need to take it, and never take a full 3 levels (with a single exception: a 1250 Karma game). Several of those are exact matches to the changes I've made. My biggest change is that all Adept powers were limited to a rating of 1/2 Magic (Round up). I also make the change that Improved Reflexes does not increase Reaction (it provides extra IPs only) and that Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) must be purchased to a level equal to or higher than Improved Reflexes (think of it as a corequisite). That change to Improved Reflexes does almost nothing to make it usable - you reduce the cost from 2 : 3 : 5 to 1.5 : 3 : 4.5 - this could be a good change if you reduce the Reflexes cost to 0.5 per level, but otherwise complicates matters without really changing anything. |
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Jan 27 2009, 08:40 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
I could dig about all of these changes. I'm not too keen on limiting magic/initiation so much; it does cost a lot of karma to do so. (If someone has a 6 magic and wants to buy up to 9 in game, this is 21+24+27 Karma for the magic alone, or 72, and then 13+16+19 for the Initations, or 48, for a grand total of 120 Karma. That's...a lot, and it's at the expense of EVERYTHING else for about an entire year of gameplay.) 104 Karma, actually (Group Initiation / Ordeals). Regardless, the issue comes up when a character eventually does reach that point; they rapidly become far more powerful than mundane counterparts, & can theoretically achieve Initiation/Karma in the high double-digits. While I seriously doubt it would ever reach this point, compare a "unlimited" Karma Awakened character to a Mundane with identical resources - the Awakened is vastly more powerful, to the point of raw stupidity. The 7/5 limit keeps the Awakened on roughly equal footing with the Mundane, even at ridiculously high Karma levels, and never actually hurts them. In addition, through various methods (including a house-ruled Infusion metamagic intended to keep "normals" equal to Infected), the Awakened can still achieve up to 10 Magic. |
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Jan 27 2009, 08:44 PM
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#9
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Why the heck did you remove Iron Gut? Did you have a problem with PCs constantly eating things? Did someone find a some way to abuse it? Did one of your players create a character based on Matter Eater Lad?
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Jan 27 2009, 09:05 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
I felt it was redundant with Natural Immunity. I may reinstate it with effects on the Necessities aspect of Lifestyles, but at this point see no reason to.
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Jan 27 2009, 10:15 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
QUOTE That change to Improved Reflexes does almost nothing to make it usable I've never had anyone shy away from Improved Reflexes, but Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction) was never taken. I have no problem with requiring the latter to take the former and having the end cost be similar to the RAW. The adjusted values of other powers, particularly the Improved Physical Attribute and Improved Ability sets alone are sufficient IMO. |
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Jan 29 2009, 03:58 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 16-January 09 Member No.: 16,777 |
Interesting changes Muspellsheimr. I haven't played an Adept yet, but I was looking seriously into doing just that. One of the things that stopped me was the high cost for Improved Reflexes. (3 to 5 points of magic just didn't leave much room for other powers). So, with the advice of some Dumpshockers I found in a few other threads I started adding in a little Bioware. Then a little became a little more. And then I figured, why not just add in the cybereyes. Finally I reached the point where I just threw up my hands, said what the hell, this guy has so much Bio/Cyberware that he's more of a sammy than an adept anyways, so I just got rid of the adept entirely since it had been a toss up for me between the adept and the sammy in the beginning.
With Improved Reflexes only costing 1 per level I could see myself being more interested in an Adept again. I can't say much for the other changes, as I have no playing experience yet. Looking forward to it though. |
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Jan 29 2009, 04:23 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 18-January 09 From: Middle of Nowhere Member No.: 16,788 |
hi hi
I think perhaps adepts could simply use a wider selection of abilities. The initiative pass power is far too expensive for what it gives you as many have already stated, but even without that problem, I haven't seen very many strong adept builds in general. It seems like, unless you're in melee or the face, improved skills are about your only options. |
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Jan 29 2009, 08:19 AM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
I would just like to clarify how I am judging the balance of these changes. Every power should be something you want to take, but no power should be something you must take.
Please note that the definition of must take does not take into account character archetypes or concepts; an unarmed combat character will generally fall into the "must" category for Critical Strike, but this is not a must for a face or hacker, & thus is not considered a "must have". In regards to Increased Reflexes, this is dangerously close to the "must" category, but that is more due to the general requirement of initiative enhancement inherit in the system than the cost/benefits of the power itself. Keeping this in mind, I would greatly appreciate feedback on your perceived balance of my changes:
Edit: I also compared them to alternate options such as cyberware where applicable. |
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Jan 29 2009, 12:01 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 825 Joined: 21-October 08 Member No.: 16,538 |
It is the Magic attribute before modifiers from Background Count, boosts from Essence Drain, or similar. The limits on Initiation & Magic is a rule I have played with quite a bit, & (in my opinion) is vastly superior to the potentially limitless advancement allowed by the Rules as Written. A similar limit was also in place for Technomancers Submersion & Resonance. ..why do you have characters who even achieve that level of strength? 134 karma to max out your magic, assuming that you even start at 5. Characters with that grade of initiation aren't Shadowrunners - They're on the Moon, working for SK. Beyond that, they're people who come up with methods to cut other people off from magic, even if it's only temporary, or being worshipped as gods. Circumstances would conspire to remove them from the Shdaowrunning game. |
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Jan 29 2009, 04:17 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
-I'm sorta see-sawing on Critical Strike's cost increase. On one hand, I do see the point-it's a cheap way to get extra damage, and one of the culprits, if you will, behind the 1-strength damage machines(+5 Crit Strike, +2 Bone Lacing, +3 DV Martial Arts, Hardliners.) At the same time, upping its cost might lean folks to maybe at least think about not horribly dumping their strength stat(not overly likely, due to all of the other things, but it's a thought.), which I am all for, on the other hand. So I'm definitely torn on this one. I would still take this at .5, but I admit I'd actually be tempted to start sneaking in bone lacing if I did. On the other hand, I'd never have to get Synaptic Boosters again with your changes.
I think the other reason why I was surprised was that you upped this cost but left the cost of Kinesics, which, IMO, does a lot more-alone. -Nerve Strike, on the other hand, I'm wondering if it's too good to drop from 1 to .5. I remember a few threads on that power, and it's a doozy. However, it offers a non-lethal way to take out enemies, which is always a plus. -Again, I'm still not sure that I'm not as big on the ''half magic.'' We always played with the fact that if someone wants to play a one-trick pony and get X levels of something(up to Magic, which isn't always 6), then that's their thing; they surprisingly start to balance out on their own after they feel a bit bored sometimes. I think I know why this in effect, and it's due to Social Skills if I had to take a bet on things, since those seem to be the biggest adept power culprit in any given situation. (Keep in mind, if you took out the half-magic power thing, I'd probably up Kinesics' cost to 1, and THEN maybe I'd think .5 for Critical Strike is a bit better. I sort of like the ability, if one so wants, to play a super-specialized adept if possible, and take several points of a power(like, say, 6 levels of Rapid Healing or something.) This again though is something I'm on the fence about, because I do see it's merits. -While I do understand why you did it, I'm still not keen on limiting the magic stat/initiations as much. As another example, since I like to play by the same rules as my party as a GM, this kind of cuts out the Really Scary Mage NPCs that I like to put in now and again(rarely, but sometimes I like to put one in.) 5 Initiations is pretty scary, but the 7 magic mage just doesn't have the oomph that the 6 Initiation, 12 magic mage does. Again, I try to put things in that the PCs can have, too-even though they might not be able to have it for a long, long, long time, they CAN still get it. Again, though, I DO see the benefits; like you said, even if your cyber people get plugged full of all delta-ware and cultured stuff that's top of the line, they do have those limits that a mage doesn't under RAW. What I might do instead of limiting them is have initiations simply cost a bit more per level after a certain point. I'd keep the first 3 the same; after that, I'd get it a bit more expensive to slow down the path to the very high levels. This way, yes, even though it might take a loong time, they can get there. But, because it will take a long time, it's unlikely to get out of hand. -Oh, btw, I love how you lowered Smashing Blow, Improved Attribute and Berserk. I too thought they needed them. Normalizing Improved Ability is also nice. Keep in mind I'm really not fully against those above changes; I simply have a few qualms about them. I have a feeling that on paper will be different than in practice; I think what it is with the Critical Strike cost is that I'm so used to many of those powers being so much more expensive, and my brain hasn't clicked fully yet with the fact that one won't need as many power points to get their ''must-haves'' anymore. Let's say I'd be perfectly willing to testplay them as is before changing them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Feb 1 2009, 10:12 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 |
So, any more input on these changes?
Edit: No one has any more comments or suggestions? Somewhat surprising... Another question then: how many expect to use these changes in their games? |
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Feb 2 2009, 01:33 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
I like that the first and second levels of increased reflexes are cheaper, but I would still make the third level a bit more expensive to stop people from pulling 4 IP's straight out of the gate. e.g. costs being 1/2/4 instead of 2/3/5.
Also if you're going to have a power reduce lifestyle costs, why not look at sustenance? Powers I would probably never use: Great Leap, Freefall, Gliding and Rooting. They all just seems less useful than other powers I could take. |
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Feb 2 2009, 01:42 AM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
I like the idea of Improved Reflexes costing .5, only improving IP's and requiring (.5-costing) Improved Physical Attribute (Reaction)
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Feb 2 2009, 01:45 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558 |
But how is that any different from just making Improved Reflexes cost 1 and do what it has always done? It's just more complicated for no reason!
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Feb 2 2009, 08:29 AM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 |
Freefall But Freefall is so awesome for those nice "exit the building via third floor window" and "drop directly to bottom, past the guard in the stairwell" Moments That power has so many cool uses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) |
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Feb 2 2009, 07:04 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,768 Joined: 31-October 08 From: Redmond (Yes, really) Member No.: 16,558 |
But how is that any different from just making Improved Reflexes cost 1 and do what it has always done? It's just more complicated for no reason! It has some merits, but I guess I see your point. Also if you're going to have a power reduce lifestyle costs, why not look at sustenance? Agreed. I like that the first and second levels of increased reflexes are cheaper, but I would still make the third level a bit more expensive to stop people from pulling 4 IP's straight out of the gate. e.g. costs being 1/2/4 instead of 2/3/5. What do other people think? I'm not sure which cost to use (1/2/3, 1/2/4). |
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