Female Trolls, Do they even exist? Options

[ElFenrir]

I'm all for "Average Joe" kinda trolls, but given their general appearance and height (and racial bonuses to attributes) even "average" is "above average" by norm standards.

But think about this-an ''average Joe'' troll might not have any fighting skill whatsoever. Just because you are big, doesn't mean you know how to fight. I've seen larger people who know nothing about fighting get their asses kicked by people smaller than them.

An ''Average Joe'' troll guy, let's say, has no Unarmed skill(or Clubs, or anything), no Firearms skill, and an Agility of 2. The fight would look sloppy and unskilled either way, and Joe Troll would not be able to lay out Joe Human in one hit(he would have 1 die for agility default, and 1 for reach.) Both of them would probably be glitching and while Joe Troll's hit might count for more, it wouldn't be some sound thrashing. .)

I'm also saying that there CAN be weaker, unhealthy trolls. Infirm, etc, can come into play. Even though by RAW it says their minimum Body and Strength are 5, I just find it hard to swallow that a troll who literally starves themselves, never exercises, has a weak immune system, and the like, has those scores.

This is one reason I'm not a big fan of set minimums in general. For example, forced minimums assume that even the biggest sod of an elf has at least a 3 by human standards. Sorry to say, but if an elf were the most despicable, antisocial, and every negative thing you can think of, I doubt he'd have a 3 even by human standards. Why can't I play a troll that's more in line of a Robert Wadlow, who had suffered from health problems, probably didn't have that big of a Body and Strength despite being almost nine feet tall.

(Another note I must say is that in some cases, magic can be the key. A Fox shifter, by RAW, can take a Troll form, yet keeps his Fox shifter stats. Which means he's a troll with no more than a 5 body or 4 Strength. How would they look in Troll form?)

As for a tall, lankier troll, I believe they can exist. There are examples of very healthy, but tall(7'6''+) people, who aren't overly large. I could probably dig some up online. (In my world, I don't like to limit the fact ''no, if you play a troll, you must be as wide as a house.'' If human examples can be above the norm and still healthy, a troll can be skinnier than average.)

A bit offtopic from the thread as a whole, but it reminds me how I've been wanting to make a system to do something about this. If someone wants to play an uncharismatic elf or a weak troll, they should be allowed to.

[pbangarth]

That's assuming the Theory of Evolution is true.

Oh dear. Not that again!

It should be noted that the dermal deposits only add 1/1 armor. Clothing adds more armor in this game. Think about how much armor 1 point is.

That's a very good point. Thanks for reminding us.

[Neraph]

The Vitals Protector PPP armor is 1/1. That's literally a cumberbun-looking thing. Dermal Armor adds the same amount.

EDIT: The basic helmet out of BBB is 1/2 armor (IIRC), and that is only on your head. Naked human, wearing only a helmet = 1/2 armor. Slightly better than nekkid troll.

[HentaiZonga]

That's assuming the Theory of Evolution is true.

Never caught MRSI, I take it.

[JaronK]

That's assuming the Theory of Evolution is true.

Like the Theory of Gravity or Atmoic Theory .

Definition of theory, in the scientific sense: A well-tested concept that explains a wide range of observations.

With that said, in Shadowrun it may indeed be false, since we know magic mucks with science and changes a lot of things.

JaronK

[Adarael]

A wizard/dragon/immortal elf/Fortune did it!

[Squinky]

Yeah, I always imagined (cause isn't that what we are doing here really? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) that all metatypes can work the full range of body types. Fat elves, skinny trolls, etc. Arguing against it with their high body stats is not really sound, since it can easily be explained with denser muscle structres, etc.

Look at humans in general, we can cover a huge range of sizes, and meta humans are humans after all.

[BlueMax]

Yeah, I always imagined (cause isn't that what we are doing here really? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) that all metatypes can work the full range of body types. Fat elves, skinny trolls, etc. Arguing against it with their high body stats is not really sound, since it can easily be explained with denser muscle structres, etc.

Look at humans in general, we can cover a huge range of sizes, and meta humans are humans after all.

I wouldn't go that far. I have round ears.

/me strokes the curve of his ear.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Don't shoot till you see the points of there ears.

[Neraph]

Never caught MRSI, I take it.

You mean MRSA, staph?I fail to see how that's evolution. Adaptation and evolution are dramatically different animals. You'd actually have to ignore a mountain of evidence that we didn't evolve to believe we did. Like the 10/1 ratio of testing methods that say the world is ~6,000 years old to the testing methods that say ~4.5 billion (or whatever the number is up to now). Or the complete lack of a massive fossile record. Or polystrata fossils. And on and on.

Topic at hand though:

I think we could look at some medical shtuff about calcium deposits and bone spurs and other sites. Evidently, shoulders are one of the first places to gain calcium deposits, and calcification is a combination of Lifestyle Lounge "hardening of the bones as well as soft tissues..". Calcium deposits themselves are just white areas on the skin that makes it more rough, and lends the skin itself a rough look, not small horns and spurs that grow through the skin.

The horns themselves that grow on the head of trolls are actual horns, but something else that should be noted on them is that they don't have a damage code. That implies to me that they aren't large enough to be used as weapons. So no ram-horns. Or bull-horns. I'd imagine them more like this.

[Wesley Street]

You mean MRSA, staph?I fail to see how that's evolution. Adaptation and evolution are dramatically different animals. You'd actually have to ignore a mountain of evidence that we didn't evolve to believe we did. Like the 10/1 ratio of testing methods that say the world is ~6,000 years old to the testing methods that say ~4.5 billion (or whatever the number is up to now). Or the complete lack of a massive fossile record. Or polystrata fossils. And on and on.

Oy, this has gone on long enough. First, the term Theory of Evolution doesn't refer to it being situated on a hierarchy of certainty. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory. A scientific theory is defined as (per the NAS): "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." A scientific theory NEVER becomes a scientific law (which is a generalization about nature). The phrase "theory of evolution" isn't an expression of doubt as to its validity.

There is NO mountain of evidence suggesting that evolution is losing adherents. Pick up any issue of a peer-reviewed biological journal, and you will find articles that support and extend evolutionary studies or that embrace evolution as a fundamental concept. Conversely, serious scientific publications disputing evolution are all but nonexistent. In fact, few anti-evolution manuscripts are even submitted to major scientific publications like Nature or Science. Those papers that do make it in, however, rarely attack evolution directly or advance creationist arguments; at best, they identify certain evolutionary problems as unsolved and difficult (which no one disputes).

No, the fossil record IS there, creationists just put their fingers in their ears, go "la-la-la" and dismiss it. And that 10/1 ratio is completely untrue and would be laughed at by any scientist, no matter what his faith is. You may believe what you like and I won't argue against anyone's beliefs but "creation science" isn't science. And I say this as a church-going Christian who also believes in science (including evolution). The truths of faith and the truths of science work side by side, not one usurping the other. Evolution doesn't make humanity any less special or make the Bible less "true," no matter what conservatives may fear. If some churches put as much effort into helping the needy as they do into trying to debunk ideas that scare it, the world would be a much better place.

I live in Indianapolis and Butler University just hosted its annual "Evolution Sunday: Pastors Who Celebrate Darwin." From Religion Dispatches.

I think we could look at some medical shtuff about calcium deposits and bone spurs and other sites. Evidently, shoulders are one of the first places to gain calcium deposits, and calcification is a combination of Lifestyle Lounge "hardening of the bones as well as soft tissues..". Calcium deposits themselves are just white areas on the skin that makes it more rough, and lends the skin itself a rough look, not small horns and spurs that grow through the skin.

The horns themselves that grow on the head of trolls are actual horns, but something else that should be noted on them is that they don't have a damage code. That implies to me that they aren't large enough to be used as weapons. So no ram-horns. Or bull-horns. I'd imagine them more like this.

There's really nothing that real life science can compare to with Shadowrun because in Shadowrun real life science is chucked out the window. It's all "magic" and that's part of the allure of the game. No living creature can give birth to a creature that's of a different species. A human couldn't give birth to an "ork" any more than a dog could give birth to a cat. The dermal deposits reference is simply a colorful way to describe why troll skin is tougher. To look deeper into it and try to reconcile it is madness. Even the "cyberpunk" stuff, while sort of comparable to what is possible, is really just fantasy. You can't lop off an arm and replace it with a metal one that is stronger without that metal arm detaching from the body. And a series of on/off sold state processors can't become an artificial intelligence through the act of love because a) there is no unified scientific explanation as to what "intelligence" is or how to measure it and b) artificial intelligence assumes it's possible to recreate organic processes using inorganic materials.

[knasser]

There's really nothing that real life science can compare to with Shadowrun because in Shadowrun real life science is chucked out the window. It's all "magic" and that's part of the allure of the game. No living creature can give birth to a creature that's of a different species. A human couldn't give birth to an "ork" any more than a dog could give birth to a cat. The dermal deposits reference is simply a colorful way to describe why troll skin is tougher. To look deeper into it and try to reconcile it is madness. Even the "cyberpunk" stuff, while sort of comparable to what is possible, is really just fantasy. You can't lop off an arm and replace it with a metal one that is stronger without that metal arm detaching from the body. And a series of on/off sold state processors can't become an artificial intelligence through the act of love because a) there is no unified scientific explanation as to what "intelligence" is or how to measure it and b) artificial intelligence assumes it's possible to recreate organic processes using inorganic materials.

I have always appreciated the pains Shadowrun took to try and create a feel of realism. From the discussions on how all that junk DNA that science thought was just filler suddenly became active in a mana-rich environment, from the gutter-sociology around the appearance of metahumanity to the carefully balanced power-levels (even dragons die in a hail of MMG fire) and impact of magic on security and commerce. It's been my feeling that the presence of elves and dragons doesn't make realism unimportant. It makes it more important.


Anyway, on the subject of realism but back on topic, I have to say that raben-aas's trolls are great. Particularly these two: Link and link. The first is not only good art, but a great and realistic take on troll proportions. The second... *ahem* hubba hubba hubba! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) . Is there any chance you might colour these up? Shadowrun needs pictures like this to accurately represent troll women. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, would you allow me to include them (with proper attribution) in my Shadowrun: Swimsuit Edition collection (currently in draft)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is a great thread!

K.

[Adarael]

There is no logical defense of any anti-evolutionary standpoint. There is a lack of evidence in certain areas of it, in that the details are unclear, but the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Period. Claiming anything other than this in the face of universal scientific support throughout the entire world really IS sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la.

I outright refuse to address the claim of 6,000 year-old-earth. Disputing geologic ages by so many orders of magnitude borders on the patently ridiculous.

[Wesley Street]

I have always appreciated the pains Shadowrun took to try and create a feel of realism. From the discussions on how all that junk DNA that science thought was just filler suddenly became active in a mana-rich environment, from the gutter-sociology around the appearance of metahumanity to the carefully balanced power-levels (even dragons die in a hail of MMG fire) and impact of magic on security and commerce. It's been my feeling that the presence of elves and dragons doesn't make realism unimportant. It makes it more important.

I think what makes it feel "real" is that the game has 20 years of relative consistency, the writers dress up the magic in pseudo-science mumbo jumo (which always sounds plausible! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), and we as players have creative enough minds to take fact and fantasy and smoosh it together into a shared hallucination.

[Stahlseele]

consensual hallucination

[hyzmarca]

A human couldn't give birth to an "ork" any more than a dog could give birth to a cat.

A dog can't give birth to a cat, but a great dane can give birth to a poodle. There is nothing unnatural about an extreme degree of variation within a single species.

[AllTheNothing]

I think what makes it feel "real" is that the game has 20 years of relative consistency, the writers dress up the magic in pseudo-science mumbo jumo (which always sounds plausible! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), and we as players have creative enough minds to take fact and fantasy and smoosh it together into a shared hallucination.

consensual hallucination

Consciousness matrix?

[raben-aas]

But think about this-an ''average Joe'' troll might not have any fighting skill whatsoever. Just because you are big, doesn't mean you know how to fight.

Totally true. And totally beside the point.

I for one lack any fighting skills at all, but I once had a weight of 130 kilo, and at a height of 1,90 m and with broad shoulders I could easily win any staredown you like.

The issue here is: How does an attractive female troll LOOK. Never mind the ugly ones, never mind if the attractive "she" knows what she can do with her physique.

Whoever she is: She HAS attribute bonuses, because SR defines her so. So: Being an average troll makes her an above-average "human" (norm) in the light of certain attributs. And that is that.

[BlueMax]

All of your recent troll-esses have been hot. The only change I recommend is making that blond a redhead.

Not nearly enough redheads around.

Err, in the art. Yeah, thats what I was talking about... the art.

[pbangarth]

All of your recent troll-esses have been hot. The only change I recommend is making that blond a redhead.

Not nearly enough redheads around.

Err, in the art. Yeah, thats what I was talking about... the art.

Blue Max! A man after my own heart!

[JaronK]

You mean MRSA, staph?I fail to see how that's evolution. Adaptation and evolution are dramatically different animals.

Not true. One is a subset of the other. That's like saying "I get that you can walk to the corner market, but it's totally impossible to get across the country. Therefor, my people must have been living where I am forever." Genetic adaptation over time = evolution.

You'd actually have to ignore a mountain of evidence that we didn't evolve to believe we did.

Give one example.

Like the 10/1 ratio of testing methods that say the world is ~6,000 years old to the testing methods that say ~4.5 billion (or whatever the number is up to now).

Totally false. Every dating method in existence other than "a book says so" puts the age as either in the 5.4 billion year range or older than the dating method is capable of measuring. For example, carbon dating can't go back more than a few thousand years (the amount of carbon 14 is too little to measure, because the half life is too short), while radio dating of other elements goes back much farther.

But prove your point... give me 10 bits of actual data that really show the world is anywhere in the ballpark of 6000 years.

Or the complete lack of a massive fossile record.

What? There's plenty of fossils all over the place. The fossil record is well documented. What are you even talking about here? That's like saying the earth is flat because there's a complete lack of being able to see the curvature of the earth when you're on a ship. You can, so the argument is pathetic.

Or polystrata fossils.

"Polystrate" is not a scientific term, it should be noted... and it means a fossil that was formed upright. That's not evidence, that's throwing out a big word. The fact that rapid sedimentation can occur, and is easy to identify, and yields vertical fossils is not a falsification of anything.

But here, you want evidence for an older earth? Genetic testing recently found the so called "Mitochondrial Eve," the most recent existant female human to be related entirely through the matriarchal line to all existing human females (easily found, because mitochondria pass only through women). She lived roughly 140,000 years ago (and to be clear, that doesn't mean she was the only woman around, just that all the other women at the time had their genetic line broken by at least one male at appropriate points). The Y Chromasome Adam, by the way, lived about 60,000 years ago. And this is easily demonstrable with actual evidence.

So, you've made a few false assertions with no actual data. Let's see 10 points of actual data (not made up stuff, or randomly saying big words) to maintain your 10 to 1 ratio, okay?

Yeesh.

Though I will buy that within the world of Shadowrun, it could have been that a dragon did it.

JaronK

[Shinobi Killfist]

But think about this-an ''average Joe'' troll might not have any fighting skill whatsoever. Just because you are big, doesn't mean you know how to fight. I've seen larger people who know nothing about fighting get their asses kicked by people smaller than them.

If the size difference is substantial the skilled guy has to be a lot better than the big guy to win. Strength means a lot in a fight, and size especially when it gives a solid reach advantage means even more.

[pbangarth]

Oh dear. Not that again!

... and now you see why I said it.

[Ryu]

... and now you see why I said it.

Yeah, it was unavoidable. It´s really not possible to answer that fundamentalist claim within the TOS, but it´s less acceptable to let it stand.

[knasser]

If the size difference is substantial the skilled guy has to be a lot better than the big guy to win. Strength means a lot in a fight, and size especially when it gives a solid reach advantage means even more.

Agreed. Size makes a lot of difference. But one interesting factor is the seriousness of the fight. A lot of fights out on a Saturday night involve a lot of posturing, a lot of shouting, sometimes a bit of walking away then coming back, finally a bit of shoving followed by a headlock or some rolling around on the ground. In the UK, there is also usually a v. skinny girl in a v. tiny skirt standing at the side saying: "Leave it alone, Darren, it's not worth it!" In such situations, size makes a great deal of difference. To the point that if one person is significantly larger than the other, you're probably not going to get that sort of fight.

On the other hand, someone who is 140lbs and really knows how to punch their weight can be just as dangerous as someone larger. One of the toughest people I've know was small and, though moderately thick set was hardly big. But we got into a bit of a fight once with some other guys and bam - 100% that weight was neatly and unexpectedly transferred through a point the size of his knuckle to one of the other guys' chins and that - considerably larger individual - was out like a light.

There are probably a lot of trolls out there who don't know how to fight. There are probably a lot of trolls who make it a point not to know how to fight just to get away from the troll bouncer image. But in all the non-fights, the posturing and the shoving and the 'are you looking at my girl' face downs, trolls have a big advantage.