Female Trolls, Do they even exist? Options

[pbangarth]

for the ladies

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/pi...24/80853107.jpg

"for the ladies"???

OK, what 'zoo' is that?

[D2F]

So, got a player, and she decided to play a female troll. After looking through the books, we found, maybe, one picture with a female troll in it, and that's not even a good representation. Are there actually female trolls, and what do they look like? Do we have visual evidence? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Someone toss me a book and page number!

Honestly, I'd love to see more artwork showing female representations of the races, just so people know what they look like. Trolls and orcs, especially, since I want to try to get past the stereotype of 'ugly brute'.

Risking that someone already posted it, but this one should do the trick

[D2F]

Your ork doesn't have enough 'orkish' in her. She needs heavier musculature, heavier facial muscles, and a rougher look to her skin and hair.

You may want to check the pictures of the Orcish Pistol Adept in SR4, the Orcish Street Sam on the Cover of "Running Wild" or the Orcish Yakuza member in "Seatle 2072" before uttering such statements =)

[SpellBinder]

Risking that someone already posted it, but this one should do the trick

The marvels of genetic engineering and reconstructive surgery. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seeing this thread reminded me of the SRM02_07 mission, where the DocWagon facility to be raided has a female troll working the front desk (picture of her on page 23). Not sure if it was mentioned here before or not.

[Tashiro]

Risking that someone already posted it, but this one should do the trick

Ahh, very nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't think she'd fall under the 'stereotype', but quite lovely.

[D2F]

Ahh, very nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't think she'd fall under the 'stereotype', but quite lovely.

She's probably closer to a Fomori, but I guess Metavariants do count =)

[Shinobi Killfist]

You may want to check the pictures of the Orcish Pistol Adept in SR4, the Orcish Street Sam on the Cover of "Running Wild" or the Orcish Yakuza member in "Seatle 2072" before uttering such statements =)

Just because the artists catalyst hires can't read the lore doesn't make it correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously why do people always make orcs and troll females hot humans with tusks or horns? They are a totally different race and should look different, and there ideas of beauty should be different as well.

[Karoline]

and there ideas of beauty should be different as well.

Why? Trolls and orcs were originally humans until they goblinized. Why should they suddenly find horns and huge muscles and rough skin attractive? The fact is that a troll doesn't have any more reason to find another troll attractive than a human has a reason to find a troll attractive.

Oh, and I'm sure this was mentioned, but the opening story in the SR4 book has one of the runners as a female troll, and even includes a picture of her.

[D2F]

Just because the artists catalyst hires can't read the lore doesn't make it correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously why do people always make orcs and troll females hot humans with tusks or horns? They are a totally different race and should look different, and there ideas of beauty should be different as well.

They are not a different race. They are a different phenotype. They are still homo sapiens. Considering how much you emphasize lore, I am surprised you didn't know that.

Besides, you may want to read up on the UGE. It is biologically impossible to sire offspring of a different race. And while we are SR lore, you may also want to check out teenage Goblinization of humans into Orks and Trolls.

Besides, what makes you think their beauty ideal changes just because their own physical form changes? That said, in SR you can bet your left nut that you will find human females that find troll males attractive as well as elven models who have fetish for dwarves or orks, just as much as you will find trolls that find that hot elven simstarlet very much conforming with their sense of "inner beauty".

[Delarn]

in previous edition the female trolls were in background and blurry ... No one wanted to see one !

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why? Trolls and orcs were originally humans until they goblinized. Why should they suddenly find horns and huge muscles and rough skin attractive? The fact is that a troll doesn't have any more reason to find another troll attractive than a human has a reason to find a troll attractive.

Oh, and I'm sure this was mentioned, but the opening story in the SR4 book has one of the runners as a female troll, and even includes a picture of her.

When goblinzation was common maybe, but in 2070 most Trolls and Goblins were born that way and have there own societal niches.

They are not a different race. They are a different phenotype. They are still homo sapiens. Considering how much you emphasize lore, I am surprised you didn't know that.

Besides, you may want to read up on the UGE. It is biologically impossible to sire offspring of a different race. And while we are SR lore, you may also want to check out teenage Goblinization of humans into Orks and Trolls.

No they are a different race. Homo Sapien Sapein for human, Homo sapien nobilis for elves, can't remember the rest. In shadowrun Racism actually is a correct label for what people like the Humanis do. They dislike people of different races, currently we have ethnicism(sp?) which we commonly call racism.

[Karoline]

When goblinzation was common maybe, but in 2070 most Trolls and Goblins were born that way and have there own societal niches.

Even if you're born a troll/orc it doesn't mean that you'll be psychologically wired to find your phenotype attractive.

No they are a different race. Homo Sapien Sapein for human, Homo sapien nobilis for elves, can't remember the rest. In shadowrun Racism actually is a correct label for what people like the Humanis do. They dislike people of different races, currently we have ethnicism(sp?) which we commonly call racism.

You just really need to stop. They are phenotypes, which means they are the same race with different expressions. Homo Sapien Sapein and Homo Sapien Nobilis are still Homo Sapien which is a race, the addition of the third word (Which isn't scientific) is simply a classification added for clarification, not indication of a new race. Also, different races can't breed viable offspring. Any two metatypes can have a viable child, which means they are all the same race.

This is why you ALWAYS see 'metatype' and not 'race' because they are all the same race, just different metatypes. What you're trying to claim is that a poodle and a pitbull are different races, when they aren't. They're both dogs, they just have vastly different phenotypes.

[D2F]

No they are a different race. Homo Sapien Sapein for human, Homo sapien nobilis for elves, can't remember the rest. In shadowrun Racism actually is a correct label for what people like the Humanis do. They dislike people of different races, currently we have ethnicism(sp?) which we commonly call racism.

Are you trying to kid me or is your knowledge of taxonomy really that bad? They are still homo sapiens. And even if they called them differently (which they don't), they would still have to be homo sapiens. Anything else would be impossible. It's really that simple. Now you can scream, kick and shout until your face turns blue, but it won't change that simple fact.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Are you trying to kid me or is your knowledge of taxonomy really that bad? They are still homo sapiens. And even if they called them differently (which they don't), they would still have to be homo sapiens. Anything else would be impossible. It's really that simple. Now you can scream, kick and shout until your face turns blue, but it won't change that simple fact.

I don't give a shit what science says. Since this was a lore discussion i am going by how SR in the past has defined them. And they have defined them as races. Also doesn't change the fact that Hot troll women is just effing Anime fan boy stupidity, where no matter the creature if its a female its got to be hot.

[Daylen]

Even if you're born a troll/orc it doesn't mean that you'll be psychologically wired to find your phenotype attractive.



You just really need to stop. They are phenotypes, which means they are the same race with different expressions. Homo Sapien Sapein and Homo Sapien Nobilis are still Homo Sapien which is a race, the addition of the third word (Which isn't scientific) is simply a classification added for clarification, not indication of a new race. Also, different races can't breed viable offspring. Any two metatypes can have a viable child, which means they are all the same race.

This is why you ALWAYS see 'metatype' and not 'race' because they are all the same race, just different metatypes. What you're trying to claim is that a poodle and a pitbull are different races, when they aren't. They're both dogs, they just have vastly different phenotypes.

you just really need to stop. critters in the same genus can usually have offspring. thats the homo. If they are homo sapien nobilis that means they are simply a seperate subspecies, but still not just a differant phenotype. and remember bengal and siberian tigers are differant subspecies. Lions and tigers are the same genus. If yer gona claim trolls and humans are the same except a differant phenotype I think a referance to RAW is in order; course if yer gona say the other way a RAW referance would be good as well. as a shot from the hip though I think trolls have enough differant features to be their own species, and probably elfs as simply a seperate subspecies.

[D2F]

I don't give a shit what science says. Since this was a lore discussion i am going by how SR in the past has defined them. And they have defined them as races. Also doesn't change the fact that Hot troll women is just effing Anime fan boy stupidity, where no matter the creature if its a female its got to be hot.

You should really stop diggin your own grave:

Humans are no longer alone—they are just one of the five major subspecies of Homo sapiens. Known collectively as metahumanity, each of the five metatypes—dwarf, elf, human, ork, and troll—are more or less evenly distributed ethnically, though populations tend to congregate geographically across the globe for various reasons.

Don't just use "lore" as an excuse, especially when the lore directly contradicts your claim.

you just really need to stop. critters in the same genus can usually have offspring. thats the homo. If they are homo sapien nobilis that means they are simply a seperate subspecies, but still not just a differant phenotype. and remember bengal and siberian tigers are differant subspecies. Lions and tigers are the same genus. If yer gona claim trolls and humans are the same except a differant phenotype I think a referance to RAW is in order; course if yer gona say the other way a RAW referance would be good as well. as a shot from the hip though I think trolls have enough differant features to be their own species, and probably elfs as simply a seperate subspecies.

According to the BBB, all Metatypes (including humans) are a subspecies of homo spaiens. You do realize, that humans are classified as homo sapiens sapiens right? They are still all homo spaiens.

Although you are right, they are not merely a phenotype. However, they are not a distinct race, either. Especially considering SR lore like the goblinization or UGE, considering them a phenotype rather than a distinct subspecies is not that far off, even if SR classifies them as a subspecies. I guess that's where we use magic as our deus es machina.

[Daylen]

I don't give a shit what science says. Since this was a lore discussion i am going by how SR in the past has defined them. And they have defined them as races. Also doesn't change the fact that Hot troll women is just effing Anime fan boy stupidity, where no matter the creature if its a female its got to be hot.

Science has nothing to do with Trolls, they are born of magic. Hence the whole cycle of magic bringing them back.

and yes I know we are homo sapiens sapiens.

[Delarn]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/scatter.gif)

[Karoline]

You should really stop diggin your own grave:

Agreed. Daylen, you obviously have no idea what your talking about. Everything you say contradicts both what the book says, and what science tells us is the definition of a species (Or at least one of the most common definitions). All you're doing is shouting "LORE LORE LORE." like it somehow backs up your argument.

[BlueMax]

This is why you ALWAYS see 'metatype' and not 'race' because they are all the same race, just different metatypes. What you're trying to claim is that a poodle and a pitbull are different races, when they aren't. They're both dogs, they just have vastly different phenotypes.

Does anyone have a Copy of SR1 handy? I am at work and cannot remember what the first Priority table is called. If I was in person, I would bet anyone around it certainly was not metatype.

BlueMax

[Sengir]

I don't give a shit what science says. Since this was a lore discussion i am going by how SR in the past has defined them.

SR 2 already talked about "five relevant subtypes of homo sapiens"...

There are some mentions of "race", but all races (including sapiens sapiens) are described as subsets of homo sapiens. So obviously the authors just did not bother with the correct scientific terminology.

[Daylen]

so that leaves a few unanswered questions.

plane humans: homo sapiens sapiens
elfs: homo sapiens nobilis
trolls: homo sapiens ????
Orcs: homo sapiens ?????
dwarfs: homo sapiens ?????

[D2F]

Science has nothing to do with Trolls, they are born of magic. Hence the whole cycle of magic bringing them back.

No, they are not. They are born because their DNA entailed dormant genes, that needed a minimum level of magic to be activated. They are not born out of magic, they are born because of magic. That is a huge difference.

If they were born out of magic, you could not use genetic modification to simly turn yourself into a Troll or Ork or Dwarf or Elf or Human at will (as long as you have the money and connections).

[Daylen]

Agreed. Daylen, you obviously have no idea what your talking about. Everything you say contradicts both what the book says, and what science tells us is the definition of a species (Or at least one of the most common definitions). All you're doing is shouting "LORE LORE LORE." like it somehow backs up your argument.

being a science person perhaps I'm not familure with what the most common definitions are; I use the scientific ones.
with homo being the genus, sapiens being the species and the subspecies would be after that.

[Karoline]

so that leaves a few unanswered questions.

plane humans: homo sapiens sapiens
elfs: homo sapiens nobilis
trolls: homo sapiens ????
Orcs: homo sapiens ?????
dwarfs: homo sapiens ?????

Does that really matter? At all?